Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

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Listyguy
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Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Listyguy » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:08 pm

So now that it's January, if we keep up with tradition, the 80s decade poll would be set to start in February. One of the main topics that has been discussed about future polls is the wildcard system. The current system, where the top 50 point getters that didn't qualify in the yearly polls are the wild cards, seems to favor years where there are a more people voting and/or years without a few songs or albums dominating the vote. Thus, the question becomes "are we happy with the current wild card system?" (there are a decent amount of forumers who aren't, but I don't know if we are just a vocal minority or reflect the prevailing opinion of the forum as a whole), and if not, what is the best alternative? Here are a few possible alternatives that I've thought up. I'd love to see other suggestions as well.
  • The Points-Per-Vote Method
    • Under this system, we would take the top 50 songs/albums based on how many points per vote they got (they must receive a minimum number of votes, say 3, to qualify). This method would favor albums that a few of us love versus an album that everyone likes.
  • The Sudden Death Method
    • Under this system, we would take every song/album that finished from 11-20 in each year (and perhaps any other songs/albums that fall outside of that range but received a minimum number of points, say 100) and let the forum vote on just those, in a sort of "11th year" round. This method has a few large downsides, namely that it would require another month for the final round. The spirit of the sudden death round, at least as I imagine it, would be to just vote for your favorites that you've already heard, as opposed to trying to listen to all 100 songs/albums in sudden death. If that were to be the general consensus, the sudden death could probably span just a single week.
  • The Sudden Death Allocation Method
    • This method would be similar to the normal Sudden Death Method I described above, but instead of everyone voting for their favorites in a list, we are each given a set number of points which we can allocate as we please. This would allow forumers to push for the music they love more strongly. The downside is that it would favor waiting as long as possible to see how others have allocated, in order to maximize your own vote. One way to counteract this could be private ballots.
I'm sure half of this is incoherent, so please ask me questions and share your own ideas for the wild card.

Also, I just want to make it clear that I'm solely starting a discussion on how the upcoming decade poll should be handled, and that I'm not looking to run the poll.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by bonnielaurel » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:22 pm

Points-per-vote is a bad idea. A 15th place would bring the average down, when the voter actually wants to support that album, even if only by 1 point.

A second round like in "Sudden death" is the only way to compare years, but there's the problem of the extra time. The current system has the advantage that votes for the same song in two different years can be transferred. It's best to let DaveC decide if he's running the poll again.

I'm also wondering which decade is next, because I read remarks about a poll for the current decade as well?

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Live in Phoenix » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:42 pm

These might be my remarks. It'd be if Jackson (if not someone else) did a sequel to his Albums and Songs of 2010-2014 Poll -- so maybe it would be an Albums and Songs of 2015-2019 Poll.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Listyguy » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:41 pm

Isn't this year too early for a 2015-2019 poll? Even in November/December, the year won't be over.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Nick » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:45 pm

I'd figure a 2010 - 2019 poll (to be held in early 2020) would make more sense than a 2015 - 2019 poll (and would render such a poll somewhat redundant), but that's just me.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Moonbeam » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:09 am

I don't think we would need extra time to compare years. If there is a worry about varying levels of participation in different years, how about points per total lists, rather than points per vote?

As far as the point allocation goes, I wouldn't be opposed to a Pazz & Jop style poll in which users can choose their own distribution of points (within limits) as long as they add to a certain point total.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Rob » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:38 am

Nick wrote:I'd figure a 2010 - 2019 poll (to be held in early 2020) would make more sense than a 2015 - 2019 poll (and would render such a poll somewhat redundant), but that's just me.
I'd wait with that poll until next year, when the whole decade is completely done.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Jirin » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:55 pm

I prefer the conventional point systems we’ve been using, just with points that are steep toward the very top. Simple top 15 per year.

I agree we shouldn’t vote on 2019 albums while it is still 2019, what if an amazing album comes out in December?

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by StevieFan13 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:47 pm

Jirin wrote:I prefer the conventional point systems we’ve been using, just with points that are steep toward the very top. Simple top 15 per year.

I agree we shouldn’t vote on 2019 albums while it is still 2019, what if an amazing album comes out in December?
Agreed on both counts
Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand - Sir Duke (1976)

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Listyguy » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:55 pm

Another option that I don't think was actually stated: normalizing the votes each month (for the wild cards). This would help to make the years more even, because years where more people vote wouldn't get an edge just for being well-timed. Of course, you could argue that the years getting more votes are inherently better years for music, and therefore deserve more albums/songs in the wild cards.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Moonbeam » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:24 pm

Listyguy wrote:Another option that I don't think was actually stated: normalizing the votes each month (for the wild cards). This would help to make the years more even, because years where more people vote wouldn't get an edge just for being well-timed. Of course, you could argue that the years getting more votes are inherently better years for music, and therefore deserve more albums/songs in the wild cards.
I agree with that. A formula like Points/(# of lists) would work.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Brad » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:58 pm

Is this happening?

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Moonbeam » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:16 pm

Brad wrote:Is this happening?
I sure hope so! Is there nobody who has agreed to run this poll? If so, I could step up, being an 80s fiend and all.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by DaveC » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:17 pm

Moonbeam wrote:
Brad wrote:Is this happening?
I sure hope so! Is there nobody who has agreed to run this poll? If so, I could step up, being an 80s fiend and all.
Please do. I could use a break from running the polls this year.

I like your proposal to calculate based upon # lists submitted. We haven't tried this before. I don't think it will make a huge difference, but let's see how it goes.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Listyguy » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:17 pm

Moonbeam wrote:
Brad wrote:Is this happening?
I sure hope so! Is there nobody who has agreed to run this poll? If so, I could step up, being an 80s fiend and all.
I'll definitely participate if this is happening! I can maybe help out occasionally if needed be with running as well.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by FrankLotion » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:33 pm

Listyguy wrote:
Moonbeam wrote:
Brad wrote:Is this happening?
I sure hope so! Is there nobody who has agreed to run this poll? If so, I could step up, being an 80s fiend and all.
I'll definitely participate if this is happening! I can maybe help out occasionally if needed be with running as well.
I’ll second that, I would love to participate and help with this if you need! I just don’t have much experience running a poll like this

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Moonbeam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:57 pm

OK, I'll host the poll! I might ask Listyguy and FrankLotion for help as needed, but here is what I am thinking:

For each year, the top 10 albums and songs qualify for the finals, no matter what.
For each year, albums and songs that place between 11 and 20 are eligible to qualify as wildcards. After voting for all 10 years has been completed, the 100 albums and songs that placed between 11 and 20 in their respective years will be ranked based on this point system:

Wild card points = (Year poll points)/(Total year poll ballots)

This way, years that attract more attention don't necessarily guarantee more entries in the finals.

I have toyed around with the idea of running it as a sort of Pazz 'n Jop style so users can have more control of their own point distributions, but I worry that extra complication might dampen turnout.

What is the standard point system used? The top 15 albums and songs each earn points based on some descending scale? It probably makes sense to continue with that, unless one of our other poll point systems might be preferred: 100*(1 + x)/(rank + x) for some choice of x.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Brad » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:07 pm

Thanks Moonbeam! As a side note, I still plug away at the famous R "Moonbeam Program" for top songs almost every day...

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Live in Phoenix » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:38 pm

I've often felt like once I start voting for spots 6-10 and certainly 11-15, that I'm just voting for "fun." I think people like having some unpredictable finalists, but I guess I'm wondering where the sweet spot is between consensus and unpredictability. When I ran the Elvis and Steely Dan polls, I used BleuPanda's Individual Artist Poll point system for the songs, because the points were distributed more evenly. (I didn't poll for albums; also, I concede that different polls might benefit from different point systems.) How would "100*(1 + x)/(rank + x) for some choice of x." play out?

Standard yearly poll system:
1. 50
2. 40
3. 30
4. 20
5. 15
6. 10
7. 9
8. 8
9. 7
10. 6
11. 5
12. 4 
13. 3
14. 2
15. 1

BleuPanda Albums (from his Bob Dylan poll):
1. 50 points
2. 37
3. 28
4. 22
5. 18
6. 14
7. 10
8. 8
9. 6
10. 4

BleuPanda Songs:
1. 50 points
2. 45
3. 40
4. 36
5. 33
6. 30
7. 28
8. 26
9. 24
10. 22
11. 20
12. 18
13. 16
14. 14
15. 12

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Moonbeam
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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Moonbeam » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:06 am

If we want 50 as a maximum (for comparison), we could use this formula:

50*(1 + x)/(rank + x)

For different values of x, we get the following:

Code: Select all

Rank  x = 1  x = 2  x = 3  x = 5
   1   50.0   50.0   50.0   50.0
   2   33.3   37.5   40.0   42.9
   3   25.0   30.0   33.3   37.5
   4   20.0   25.0   28.6   33.3
   5   16.7   21.4   25.0   30.0
   6   14.3   18.8   22.2   27.3
   7   12.5   16.7   20.0   25.0
   8   11.1   15.0   18.2   23.1
   9   10.0   13.6   16.7   21.4
  10    9.1   12.5   15.4   20.0
  11    8.3   11.5   14.3   18.8
  12    7.7   10.7   13.3   17.6
  13    7.1   10.0   12.5   16.7
  14    6.7    9.4   11.8   15.8
  15    6.2    8.8   11.1   15.0
I'd also be happy to award points beyond the top 15 - we seem to get lots of lists that go well beyond a top 15, and I've always felt like those songs and albums have missed out. I know that for the 80s (especially the early part of the decade), I am a big fan of well over 15 albums and songs, and will have song lists that extend past 100 in many cases. For the 90s, it would be a different story, and I'd struggle coming up with 15 albums for most years, and I know I wouldn't mind those who are big fans of the 90s having more weight than my own lists.

As for as the choice of x is concerned, I think x = 2 or x = 3 looks pretty good among these.

Another benefit of a point system like this is that it is much less likely to produce ties.
Last edited by Moonbeam on Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Moonbeam » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:07 am

Brad wrote:Thanks Moonbeam! As a side note, I still plug away at the famous R "Moonbeam Program" for top songs almost every day...
Excellent! I haven't played with my program in far too long, but I'm keen to get back into it. I've thought about actually making a proper app for it, but I'd need to skill up on some code.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Moonbeam » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:12 am

Any thoughts on the proposed point system from a few posts up? I'm going to start the poll for 1980 soon!

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by DaveC » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:38 am

Moonbeam wrote:Any thoughts on the proposed point system from a few posts up? I'm going to start the poll for 1980 soon!
As I prefer to see 'a few people love it' rating well compared with 'everybody has heard it', then x=1 seems better. However, in recent decade polls, voters have usually demonstrated broad and eclectic taste, so I think x=2 would still generate interesting results.

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Re: Planning For Next Decade Poll (80s?)

Post by Listyguy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:06 am

Moonbeam wrote: For each year, albums and songs that place between 11 and 20 are eligible to qualify as wildcards. After voting for all 10 years has been completed, the 100 albums and songs that placed between 11 and 20 in their respective years will be ranked based on this point system:
This would also include songs with ambiguous release years right? At that point you would just add the normalized scores from the two years a song recieved votes together.

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