AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

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What should the lower limit for song lists be?

Poll ended at Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:11 pm

100 Songs
13
72%
200 Songs
5
28%
 
Total votes: 18

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Holden
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AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Hi! In the 2021 Poll Planning Thread, I discussed hosting this years All Time Songs Poll. I'd like to discuss a few things in this thread before moving on with anything else:

1. I am not wholly attached to this poll. I am excited at the idea of hosting it, but I do not want to host it if someone else wants to, especially as I have already hosted last years All Time poll. But this does not mean I'm not eager for the prospect of hosting another poll, I'm super excited! But again, if someone else wishes to host, they can.
2. In a similar vain, does anyone have any issue with me hosting this? I am not worried about the work involved, having hosted the all time poll last year makes me confident I can host this, but does anyone have an issue with me hosting two all-time polls in a row?
2. I see no reason to really change up anything from the format of the 2018 poll, so I will keep using his formula from 2018, and rules of having 200 minimum and 1000 maximum song limit, etc.
3. For timeline, I have no wishes to interrupt anyone else's polls, but I also really don't think I will. Jackson brought up that they didn't want any interference with their non-English songs poll, and I absolutely agree (and am excited for it)! For this poll specifically, I'd love to know Jackson's timeline for it. I figure as long as the all time songs poll is extended beyond the non-English deadline by a month/two, then it will be fine.
4. For my timeline of this poll, I think it would be a good idea to start it in March and end it in July or August. The thing is that whenever we host these polls, people require extensions, and in both my albums poll last year and Sweepstakes Ron's poll three years ago, the poll ended up being pushed to about six months of time to vote. I have not problem just starting with a deadline that time out and being more rigid than I was last year. So I think that if I start it on March 1st or 15th and end it on July 31st or August 15th and stay firm, that would be best. This is almost identical to the 2018 timeline for this poll as well.

Alright, thanks! Sorry if this is excessive, but I'm super excited for this poll! I've been working on my own list for a few months and can't wait for it, especially since the songs poll is always more volatile than the albums poll.
Last edited by Holden on Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Henry »

Thanks for hosting and presenting this and many other polls. You have been doing a fantastic job!

I would prefer a 1000 song limit to some lower limit as I plan to have more than 10,000 songs on my list :-)

If we are providing our lists only by e-mail attachment, then the longer lists should be no problem. But, if we present our list in a thread, I propose that lists greater than 1000, be presented so that only the top 1000 songs are in the general thread and songs lower than 1000 are presented in a separate thread.

I am looking forward to re-ranking my favorite songs :-)
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Henry wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:29 am Thanks for hosting and presenting this and many other polls. You have been doing a fantastic job!

I would prefer a 1000 song limit to some lower limit as I plan to have more than 10,000 songs on my list :-)

If we are providing our lists only by e-mail attachment, then the longer lists should be no problem. But, if we present our list in a thread, I propose that lists greater than 1000, be presented so that only the top 1000 songs are in the general thread and songs lower than 1000 are presented in a separate thread.

I am looking forward to re-ranking my favorite songs :-)
Thank you for the kind words!

1000 is going to be the limit! Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I meant a lower limit of 200 and upper limit of 1000!

I'll allow people to submit list by whatever method (email or posting) but that is a good idea that I haven't thought of regarding the extra-long lists.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Sweepstakes Ron »

I do believe that the 2018 poll was, to date, the largest poll on the forum in terms of scale. The whole thing ended up being quite draining for me (particularly as I was incredibly thorough in making sure everything was exactly as I'd wanted it to be and free of error), but given that you've already hosted a large poll, I trust your judgement that you can handle it. Of course, if someone else takes over for you, they may still heed my warning. I will say one thing: it's not necessary for you to find lyrics for the entire top 2000 like I did last time. Maybe just towards the top of the list. However, I would like to suggest that the host add in the years for each song, which I did not do the previous time.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:13 am I do believe that the 2018 poll was, to date, the largest poll on the forum in terms of scale. The whole thing ended up being quite draining for me (particularly as I was incredibly thorough in making sure everything was exactly as I'd wanted it to be and free of error), but given that you've already hosted a large poll, I trust your judgement that you can handle it. Of course, if someone else takes over for you, they may still heed my warning. I will say one thing: it's not necessary for you to find lyrics for the entire top 2000 like I did last time. Maybe just towards the top of the list. However, I would like to suggest that the host add in the years for each song, which I did not do the previous time.
I plan to add years. I won’t do what I did for the album poll, though, when I added found the years for every album that received a vote (by far the most draining part of that poll for me, even with getting help from many people.) That seems somewhat absurd for songs, but I plan to include years for every song in the rollout.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

Unforunatly I might not participate in this. I can sort albums but songs are just too hard!
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by panam »

Holden wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:38 am
Henry wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:29 am Thanks for hosting and presenting this and many other polls. You have been doing a fantastic job!

I would prefer a 1000 song limit to some lower limit as I plan to have more than 10,000 songs on my list :-)

If we are providing our lists only by e-mail attachment, then the longer lists should be no problem. But, if we present our list in a thread, I propose that lists greater than 1000, be presented so that only the top 1000 songs are in the general thread and songs lower than 1000 are presented in a separate thread.

I am looking forward to re-ranking my favorite songs :-)
Thank you for the kind words!

1000 is going to be the limit! Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I meant a lower limit of 200 and upper limit of 1000!

I'll allow people to submit list by whatever method (email or posting) but that is a good idea that I haven't thought of regarding the extra-long lists.
It would be bad if extra long lists couldn't be showed. Lists of people like Schüttelbirne are very inspiring to know more music.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Sweepstakes Ron »

This is why we need a spoiler function on the forum, so we could post extra long lists without making scrolling unmanageable.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by DaveC »

You are the poll making champion Holden, and it is appreciated. Just don't burn yourself out.

A limit of 1000 song lists in the poll thread and a separate thread for extended lists would be fine.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Schüttelbirne »

I definitely plan on participating, though I don't know how long my list will be.

Important question to get out of the way right at the start: What is the eligibility of classical music? And should we credit it to the composer or choose a specific version (in the latter case I doubt any classical song will make the final list).
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Schüttelbirne wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:50 pm I definitely plan on participating, though I don't know how long my list will be.

Important question to get out of the way right at the start: What is the eligibility of classical music? And should we credit it to the composer or choose a specific version (in the latter case I doubt any classical song will make the final list).
On classical music, I'm not sure. What do people think?
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Jackson »

Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:52 am This is why we need a spoiler function on the forum, so we could post extra long lists without making scrolling unmanageable.
In the last poll we managed this through a separate thread for lists longer than 1,000, which included sonofsamiam's incredible top 5,000 list that remains a great reference point for me for new discoveries. We should do this again this time. My goal is to go up to 2,000 this year (I'm in the 1,700s right now!).
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Live in Phoenix »

I'm definitely keeping mine at 1,000, and I'm hoping to just do a gloss on what I had last time. I had a ridiculous amount of free time in 2018 compared to now. I was going to maybe even pare my list down, but then I thought I'd potentially have less items show up in the Biggest Fan thread :D
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Rob »

Holden wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:37 pm
Schüttelbirne wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:50 pm I definitely plan on participating, though I don't know how long my list will be.

Important question to get out of the way right at the start: What is the eligibility of classical music? And should we credit it to the composer or choose a specific version (in the latter case I doubt any classical song will make the final list).
On classical music, I'm not sure. What do people think?
In previous editions we went with composers and not a specific version. I don't have a strong preference, but I guess it's true that with specific versions we can forget any classical song ranking. Some people also ranked traditionals without a specific version (like Yankee Doodle Dandy, which appeared in Biggest Fan), despite many of them having definitive versions. It feels a bit odd, like voting for all versions of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah at once, despite the different takes always being very similar.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Sweepstakes Ron »

Rob wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:53 pmSome people also ranked traditionals without a specific version (like Yankee Doodle Dandy, which appeared in Biggest Fan), despite many of them having definitive versions. It feels a bit odd, like voting for all versions of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah at once, despite the different takes always being very similar.
I'm pretty sure prosecutorgodot was the only one who did that, and I just went with it because no one else was voting for any of those songs.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Alright, I've made a few decisions:
1. In order to make life easier for myself, instead of starting a spreadsheet from scratch, I'm going to use last year's list from Sweepstakes Ron's spreadsheet as a 'starting list.' Therefore, I don't have to re-type or add every song again, only new additions.
2. I'm going to handle classical pieces like they were handled in 2018. Sections of classical music can be submitted under the name of the composer. While personally, I think that it should be required to be a specific recording/ensemble, I feel like this went well last year so if it isn't broke I'm not going to try to fix it.

Does that work for everyone?
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by jamieW »

Holden wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:34 pm Alright, I've made a few decisions:
1. In order to make life easier for myself, instead of starting a spreadsheet from scratch, I'm going to use last year's list from Sweepstakes Ron's spreadsheet as a 'starting list.' Therefore, I don't have to re-type or add every song again, only new additions.
2. I'm going to handle classical pieces like they were handled in 2018. Sections of classical music can be submitted under the name of the composer. While personally, I think that it should be required to be a specific recording/ensemble, I feel like this went well last year so if it isn't broke I'm not going to try to fix it.

Does that work for everyone?
Yes! To me "song" is the ultimate all-encompassing musical term (even though it literally implies singing, as my wife never hesitates to point out). I'd feel terrible to see classical pieces excluded, and specifying a performance would lead to vote-splitting that would make it nearly impossible for any piece to rank very high.

Thanks for taking on this massive poll, Holden! To say this would be beyond my Excel (and time) capabilities would be a monumental understatement. (Last time, I could barely handle making my own list.)
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Elder »

I have already annihilated my entire 2018 list and finished the new 2021 list at the end of last year.
Just waiting for the start of work to forget the 2021 list and start the 2024 list.

I prefer that individual lists be posted on a public topic for all members to view (including lists sent by PM or Email).
Tracking individual lists over the months is almost as cool as the result of the all time survey.
:teasing-lurk:

The peak of the songs in the previous lists would be interesting for the presentation, but I can't see the first lists completely in the website's history.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by prosecutorgodot »

An immediate alternative to the spoiler tag thing (which would certainly be nice) is post all overflow listing in a separate thread, and just hyperlink the two posts.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Live in Phoenix »

I remember someone didn't clear the minimum last time. Mine will likely be 1,000 again, but why don't we make the minimum just 100? That still seems substantial. I've even pondered posting 1-100, to have something on the books, then later 101-1,000.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Live in Phoenix wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:40 pm I remember someone didn't clear the minimum last time. Mine will likely be 1,000 again, but why don't we make the minimum just 100? That still seems substantial. I've even pondered posting 1-100, to have something on the books, then later 101-1,000.
If no one objects I’d be fine lowering the limit to 100, but no lower than that.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Nick »

Holden wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:42 pm
Live in Phoenix wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:40 pm I remember someone didn't clear the minimum last time. Mine will likely be 1,000 again, but why don't we make the minimum just 100? That still seems substantial. I've even pondered posting 1-100, to have something on the books, then later 101-1,000.
If no one objects I’d be fine lowering the limit to 100, but no lower than that.
100 is the absolute lowest I think is fine too.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Nick wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:47 pm
Holden wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:42 pm
Live in Phoenix wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:40 pm I remember someone didn't clear the minimum last time. Mine will likely be 1,000 again, but why don't we make the minimum just 100? That still seems substantial. I've even pondered posting 1-100, to have something on the books, then later 101-1,000.
If no one objects I’d be fine lowering the limit to 100, but no lower than that.
100 is the absolute lowest I think is fine too.
One thing that I always have to remind myself on limits is that 1000 song lists inherently have more power than 100 song lists, even if it seems unfair that both have the same value at number 1. I did the math, and a 1000 song list gives out 3.74 times as many points as a 100 song list.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by panam »

Holden wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:08 am
Nick wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:47 pm
Holden wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:42 pm

If no one objects I’d be fine lowering the limit to 100, but no lower than that.
100 is the absolute lowest I think is fine too.

One thing that I always have to remind myself on limits is that 1000 song lists inherently have more power than 100 song lists, even if it seems unfair that both have the same value at number 1. I did the math, and a 1000 song list gives out 3.74 times as many points as a 100 song list.
I don't know.. I think lower than 200 as the previous edition contributes to less diversity..but I could be wrong..
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

I’ve added a poll to the initial post regarding the lower limit of song list length. I’m not strictly going to follow the results of it, but I’d like to see what people want.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by andyd1010 »

The higher the better. I think 100 is too few. I'll probably post a 10,000-song list.

Edit: Nevermind, I thought we were talking about maximums. For minimum I don't mind 100 too much, although I would encourage people to post longer lists.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Otisredding »

I am looking forward to participating but I have a suggestion to make.

During the summer many of us may have more time to compile our list. Could you push the deadline until August 31?

And now something that can be controversial: Very long lists ... I think that as the lists get longer they are less precise. We all know of some AM'ers who posted lists where the same song was two or three times (and sometimes in very distant places!).

I know that my proposal will not be successful but I suggest more manageable lists (of 300 songs maximum). If we all did this, I think more thoughtful and realistic lists would come out.

I also think it would be interesting to carry out a survey on occasion where we all contribute the same number of songs, for example the 100 favorite songs of each one, encouraging new people to do it too (I think there are readers who when they see lists of 5,000 songs are scared and do not want to participate).
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Elder »

There is a forum topic for members to post their extensive lists (> 1000)
Assigning a higher score to the top 200 would make the list more authentic.
The list I posted considering only the Top 200 of the individual lists in 2018 formed a more original playlist.
:happy-smileyinthebox:

I voted for a top 200 to the minimum. But whatever...
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Nick »

Otisredding wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:36 pm I am looking forward to participating but I have a suggestion to make.

During the summer many of us may have more time to compile our list. Could you push the deadline until August 31?

And now something that can be controversial: Very long lists ... I think that as the lists get longer they are less precise. We all know of some AM'ers who posted lists where the same song was two or three times (and sometimes in very distant places!).

I know that my proposal will not be successful but I suggest more manageable lists (of 300 songs maximum). If we all did this, I think more thoughtful and realistic lists would come out.

I also think it would be interesting to carry out a survey on occasion where we all contribute the same number of songs, for example the 100 favorite songs of each one, encouraging new people to do it too (I think there are readers who when they see lists of 5,000 songs are scared and do not want to participate).
I largely agree with everything you wrote, but I think a 300 maximum is too low. I plan on submitting a 500 song list. I think a 1,000 song maximum is the lowest I’d be willing to accept.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by bonnielaurel »

There's no reason to exclude someone who "only" made a top 100, so I voted 100 as the minimum.

Myself I'll make a top 1000 for the second time. That's about fifteen songs a year, so not as much as it seems. First I'll update my artist lists and decide roughly which artist gets how many songs. Then I'll go through my year lists and compare them to my previous top 1000 arranged by year. For classical music I'll pick ten to fifteen of my favorite one-movement compositions. The hardest part is putting them in order, because it's impossible to Django Reinhardt to Dua Lipa. Also for some of my favorite artists I can't make a final decision on what their best song is.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by panam »

Otisredding wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:36 pm
And now something that can be controversial: Very long lists ... I think that as the lists get longer they are less precise. We all know of some AM'ers who posted lists where the same song was two or three times (and sometimes in very distant places!).

I know that my proposal will not be successful but I suggest more manageable lists (of 300 songs maximum). If we all did this, I think more thoughtful and realistic lists would come out.

I also think it would be interesting to carry out a survey on occasion where we all contribute the same number of songs, for example the 100 favorite songs of each one, encouraging new people to do it too (I think there are readers who when they see lists of 5,000 songs are scared and do not want to participate).
Mmmmmmm...

I don't know why many people find long lists intimidating. For me, it's like a lesson. The longest lists have many things that are hidden behind the obvious choices.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Live in Phoenix »

Top 100 lists are like the building blocks of the main site. I don't see how 100 would be just too few.

On the flip side, I put a hell of a lot of time into my old top 1,000 list, so I wouldn't really call it imprecise (though the last 50-100 could be changed out fairly easily, in retrospect).
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Alright, the poll is live!
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Sweepstakes Ron »

Oh yeah, one thing I should point out, when I did the poll last time I purposefully did not list any "featuring" artists credited for the songs, I don't know if that's something you want to change or not.
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:36 pm Oh yeah, one thing I should point out, when I did the poll last time I purposefully did not list any "featuring" artists credited for the songs, I don't know if that's something you want to change or not.
I'll include feature artists in the rollout.

What I'm doing is, after adding a list, I go through and find all of the songs that are over 100 points, and I add information such as lyrics, AM Rank, year, and featured artists for those songs. After four lists, 107 songs have 100 points or more!
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Krurze »

Hi,

before I begin working on my list I have a technical question. Is there an easy way to export an excel file into a text file with a divider that is not just a tabulator, so that it looks something like this in the end:

1 | The Beatles | Get Back

That would simplify my list-making process significantly :music-listening:
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Holden »

Krurze wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:32 pm Hi,

before I begin working on my list I have a technical question. Is there an easy way to export an excel file into a text file with a divider that is not just a tabulator, so that it looks something like this in the end:

1 | The Beatles | Get Back

That would simplify my list-making process significantly :music-listening:
What I always do is just add columns between the Rank and Artist, and then another between the artist and the song (probably having copied the list into a new sheet) and then add the “|” symbol in the new blank columns. Then you just copy it over, and when you submit the post it removed the extra spacing that appears
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by DaveC »

Krurze wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:32 pm Hi,

before I begin working on my list I have a technical question. Is there an easy way to export an excel file into a text file with a divider that is not just a tabulator, so that it looks something like this in the end:

1 | The Beatles | Get Back

That would simplify my list-making process significantly :music-listening:

Put something like this into every cell in a column, then cut and paste the result directly into a post or into a text file as required.

=A2&" | "&B2&" | "&C2
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Krurze
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Krurze »

DaveC wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:09 pm Put something like this into every cell in a column, then cut and paste the result directly into a post or into a text file as required.

=A2&" | "&B2&" | "&C2
Hot damn, now that's a game changer! Thanks!

And also thanks Holden, your method works just as well, but Dave's is even easier 8-)

I can't believe I've done this all manually the last time :?
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Sweepstakes Ron
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Sweepstakes Ron »

I suppose I can bring this up here instead of making another thread... at the moment, I'm doing a serious job hunt for the first time, and I'm looking toward a career in data analytics. I'm wondering if it would be at all feasible to use my work on the 2018 all-time as a way to sell myself to potential employers? Not necessarily on a resume, but perhaps mentioned in a cover letter? It certainly would demonstrate my passion for this type of data-based work and some proficiency in Excel, but I'm not clear on whether it's quite at the right level... and, perhaps more concerning, how I'd actually go about explaining such a niche project to those outside our little community? I don't have much else to boast in terms of experience, so I'd like some advice from the inner circle here so I don't end up making a fool of myself. Thanks in advance!
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Akhenaten
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Akhenaten »

Oops. Wrong thread.
Last edited by Akhenaten on Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nick
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Re: AMF Favorite Songs of All Time 2021 Edition - Planning Thread

Post by Nick »

Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:36 pm I suppose I can bring this up here instead of making another thread... at the moment, I'm doing a serious job hunt for the first time, and I'm looking toward a career in data analytics. I'm wondering if it would be at all feasible to use my work on the 2018 all-time as a way to sell myself to potential employers? Not necessarily on a resume, but perhaps mentioned in a cover letter? It certainly would demonstrate my passion for this type of data-based work and some proficiency in Excel, but I'm not clear on whether it's quite at the right level... and, perhaps more concerning, how I'd actually go about explaining such a niche project to those outside our little community? I don't have much else to boast in terms of experience, so I'd like some advice from the inner circle here so I don't end up making a fool of myself. Thanks in advance!
I really can't say for sure, but it doesn't seem like an inherently bad idea to me. If you have any experience with Excel (I'm guessing this is where you compiled the poll info), then I'd probably mention it there.
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