AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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ordinaryperson
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AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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This is the thread where we'll be discussing Ernest Hemingway's 1926 novel The Sun Also Rises.

You can discuss anything you'd like about the section of the novel we are reading. From the 18th of November to 25th of November we'll be discussing chapters 1-7. This thread will probably contain spoilers so be careful when reading the posts in this thread. If by next week you haven't caught up with the previous section we discussed feel free to post about it. Just don't post about anything in any of the sections we haven't gotten to.

The schedule:
Chapters I-VII (Nov. 18th - Nov. 25th)
Chapters VIII-XII (Nov. 25th - Dec. 2nd)
Chapters XIII-XVII (Dec. 2nd - Dec. 9th)
Chapters XVIII-End (Dec. 9th - Dec. 16th)
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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We now move into the discussion of Chapters VIII-XII.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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I wanted to note that I am planning to participate but was busy reading Rhythm of War since it came out November 17, and then I noticed this book is rather expensive on Kindle and decided to order a physical copy due to the B2G1 free sale on Amazon. I won't be able to start until it arrives on Wednesday.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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We now move into the discussion of Chapters XIII-XVII.
BleuPanda wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:27 pm I wanted to note that I am planning to participate but was busy reading Rhythm of War since it came out November 17, and then I noticed this book is rather expensive on Kindle and decided to order a physical copy due to the B2G1 free sale on Amazon. I won't be able to start until it arrives on Wednesday.
It's the same with me, I'm in the middle of reading Carl Jung's Memories, Dreams, Reflections but I'm almost finished and then I'll focus on The Sun Also Rises which I've already read the first 3 chapters of.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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Discussion from Chapter XVIII to the end of the novel starts now.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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This is where I have to admit I was hoping someone else would say something so I could pose my thoughts more as a response, but I guess I'll try to go first. I can see why this is an important work in many ways, but man is Hemingway's ultra-masculine style the exact opposite of what I'm into. (I also have to say, in general, I might not be commenting until we discuss the full novel)

First, the good - this very much feels like the prototypical contemporary novel. Ernest Hemingway strips down most of these passages to the most important information, making it a breeze to read through. He's very to-the-point when I feel like his contemporaries had tendencies to lose their focus among seemingly endless narration. As much as I resent some of the themes, Hemingway is technically magnificent.

I also like the sense of aimlessness that pervades the novel. I always questioned the 'Lost Generation' as a term but this poses it perfectly. Through his sparseness, Hemingway rarely dives explicitly into his character's psyche, instead letting us observe the state of their lives and draw our own conclusions. This is a set of characters caught up in their own self-imposed scandals, none of which really seem to add up to anything; actions without purpose. They drink, they sleep around, they travel to watch violent sports. One might call them hedonists, except there's little suggesting this lifestyle brings them joy.

As such, The Sun Also Rises lacks a real sense of narrative but makes up for it as a mood piece. This is the inner workings of drifting expatriates too masculine to confront their emotions before they explode. It feels like a sister piece to The Great Gatsby in the way they both capture unease during the roaring 20s; all these characters are so well off yet so very unhappy. What does it take to be happy? Not money alone. Both Gatsby and Jake have convinced themselves their only path to happiness rests within a woman they cannot have; they make their own unhappiness. The Sun Also Rises ends with Jake and Brett together, lamenting the past they didn't have with each other. While speaking of the past, they ignore the endless possibility of the future; are they afraid to finally try and fail? Have they already accepted any relationship as impossible and are instead choosing to create a nostalgic alternative reality? They're so focused on themselves, they seem to find more happiness in potentials than actual pursuit.

Which, this reinforces the strength in how Hemingway writes - we never really get inside their thoughts, yet I feel so aware of their inner processes. I think the key here is, by not confirming which of the many possibilities are the case, Hemingway is subtly suggesting all possibilities are playing a part. There's so many ways things might go wrong that it's easier not to try and fantasize about the timeline where it goes right. And life keeps drifting away...

But, jeeze, did I not expect a novel from 1926 to include the line "Abraham Lincoln was a faggot." The anti-Semitic language was more expected but no less discomforting. It's very true to the era and the characters, but it also makes it hard to recommend this as anything more than an encapsulation of its era. As this is my first Hemingway novel, I obviously need to read more, but he strikes me as a very talented artist who I find morally repulsive (unlike, say, Lolita, where my discomfort is very much the creation of a self-aware author aiming for that response).

I could dive into the bullfighting and all the implicit symbolism there, but I was kinda checked out as I got further into the novel. A group of straight men fighting over the same woman is such an overdone topic that I can't bring myself to care about the details, no matter how strong the language or atmosphere. It works as part of the drifting aimlessness, but whatever.

Altogether, The Sun Also Rises is a finely written novel with a surprisingly dense atmosphere not in spite of but because of its sparse style, marred by an overly familiar plot and some rough world views. In other words, a perfect representation of the Lost Generation, warts and all.



Well, I wrote about twice as much as I expected, and I think my opinion toward the novel is a bit more positive for having done so. I feel that trying to capture an aimless atmosphere is a challenge that is rarely rewarded within the novel itself; it requires a bit of reflection after the fact to see the full picture.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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BleuPanda wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:33 pm "Hemingway's ultra-masculine style... " "a very talented artist who I find morally repulsive... "
I think there may be a worthwhile debate about whether Hemingway ends up indirectly celebrating these overly macho environments, even by virtue of the fact he keeps returning to them, but he also seems to clearly be critiquing them. The line about Lincoln, Jake's apparent "anger" at the drag act (which is clearly borne out of jealousy) ... these are people being very transparently insecure about whether they live up to their own or society's standards of masculinity.

I don't know much about Hemingway's personal life; I have a sense that he was a problematic figure although I can't recall in which ways, but in this book it feels to me more like someone honestly reflecting on a tendency he recognises in others, and probably in himself.

I doubt you're actually saying that including openly homophobic and/or racist characters is itself a bad thing, so I guess I'm not sure what you are saying. American Beauty, for example - you may hate it, for all I know, but would you put it in the same bracket?
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

Post by BleuPanda »

It's more along the lines that, in this book, the homophobia and racism doesn't necessarily come off as being part of the moral failing of the characters. It feels more like Hemingway jabbing at these groups than a meaningful statement; that this was just how he felt people viewed these groups in this time.

The big issue is not that the characters are anti-Semetic as much as the way Hemingway writes the one Jewish character. The presentation of Cohn reinforces the anti-Semetic views the other characters share, which suggests this is more Hemingway's prejudices showing through than a moral statement.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

Post by Duncan Thaw »

I should say that it's a good long while since I read this. What was it in particular about Cohn? I barely remember noticing his Jewishness; just that he seemed to not be fully accepted as "one of the boys" and perhaps took himself a bit too seriously.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

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Finally got around to finishing The Sun Also Rises, most of what I thought about the book is similar to what BleuPanda said. I've read Hemingway before, in my freshman year of high school I read The Old Man and the Sea outside of thinking the book was boring I don't remember much about it. The Sun Also Rises just seems like a lesser Great Gatsby to me. The plot of the novel is completely uninteresting to me, as BleuPanda said a group of men chasing after a woman has been done to death. The Sun Also Rises seems like it was written because Hemingway wanted to make a book about his friends. As for the racist, homophobic, and anti-Semitic remarks found throughout the book I'm not really sure if that's used to portray the characters in a negative light. I could definitely see it being that way but given that the book was written and takes place in 1920s there is a chance that it was just a product of its time. At least The Sun Also Rises was short and easy to read.
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Re: AMF Book Club #2 - The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway

Post by DaveC »

I did not enjoy The Sun Also Rises. Hemingway has taken 'show don't tell' to the extreme. The back stories and inner lives of the protagonists are left very nearly entirely to the imagination of the reader. To make matters worse, these characters are aliens to me: I steer well clear of anyone remotely like them and I have almost no experiences in common with them. I also recall reading of the great difference in worldview between those born in Western countries before WW1 and all those born since.

My own take on this is that these characters have all suffered psychological trauma. Their dissolute/childlike behaviour, random choices, and desire to be continually wasted are just strategies to avoid facing facts about themselves. Only in the case of Jake do we get any clear indication of the cause of his state of mind. Hemingway asks too much of the reader: We have to create our own broader canvas to frame these rather tedious events. Possibly a goldmine for literature teachers who can demonstrate their cleverness when fleshing out these bare bones. Not for me.
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