Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

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nicolas
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Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by nicolas »

So ????? next decade poll for 2014 should be the fantastic and eclectic 70's. I'll have no time to host this poll, but i'm sure some of you will be interested (one or two persons or even more)
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Listyguy »

Can't wait to see who takes this one. Good luck to whoever does it. :D
I kid, of course. This should be a great poll though, arguably my favorite decade.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by nicolas »

Yes, mine too. It's a lot of work, but it can be done by 2 or more people, like you did with Moonbeam this year with the 80's. What would AMF look like without a proper decade poll???

And we also need somebody to run the 2013 poll in late january :whistle: :whistle:
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by JimmyJazz »

I can be one of the two poll hosters, but we will need somebody else to handle the other years, as my schedule may be busy occasionally as well.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Moonbeam »

I can jump in as a co-host as well if no one else wants to do it.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Zorg »

I could take it as well, but just not for the first couple of months as I'm quite busy for them.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

I'm ready for this whenever it starts, I have a top 20 album list and a top 100+ song list.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruno »

I'm ready too!
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by nicolas »

The best would be to start in February
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Live in Phoenix »

Not essential, but it'd be neat if someone who lived through all the '70s could provide an observation here & there, year to year (what it was like to hear about the Beatles breaking up, any number of rock stars dying, some genre like rap or disco sprouting up, etc.) I only had a whiff of the '70s and wouldn't qualify.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Live in Phoenix wrote:Not essential, but it'd be neat if someone who lived through all the '70s could provide an observation here & there, year to year (what it was like to hear about the Beatles breaking up, any number of rock stars dying, some genre like rap or disco sprouting up, etc.) I only had a whiff of the '70s and wouldn't qualify.
Thanks for the excellent suggestion.

My memories of the 1970's are not crystal clear.

But between Bruce and myself we should be able to add a few observations.

Keep in mind that the input is likely to be very subjective.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Live in Phoenix »

Henry wrote:
Live in Phoenix wrote:Not essential, but it'd be neat if someone who lived through all the '70s could provide an observation here & there, year to year (what it was like to hear about the Beatles breaking up, any number of rock stars dying, some genre like rap or disco sprouting up, etc.) I only had a whiff of the '70s and wouldn't qualify.
Thanks for the excellent suggestion.

My memories of the 1970's are not crystal clear.

But between Bruce and myself we should be able to add a few observations.

Keep in mind that the input is likely to be very subjective.
Thanks, I think it'd be great to hear from both of you. I might post a few time capsule pictures, but it's a much different thing for me to say, without being there that day or that era, "(____ rock star) died and that was probably depressing" or "I think the hippies were still bummed about Altamont during 1970."
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Brad »

Henry wrote:
Live in Phoenix wrote:Not essential, but it'd be neat if someone who lived through all the '70s could provide an observation here & there, year to year (what it was like to hear about the Beatles breaking up, any number of rock stars dying, some genre like rap or disco sprouting up, etc.) I only had a whiff of the '70s and wouldn't qualify.
But between Bruce and myself we should be able to add a few observations.
as of course should the other board members who lived through the '70's (there are several, actually!).
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

Live in Phoenix wrote:Not essential, but it'd be neat if someone who lived through all the '70s could provide an observation here & there, year to year (what it was like to hear about the Beatles breaking up, any number of rock stars dying, some genre like rap or disco sprouting up, etc.) I only had a whiff of the '70s and wouldn't qualify.
After about 1972 all I was interested in was 50s music. Most of the 70s stuff was just bad. A lot of boring housewife songs in the top 40, and at the time I hated most disco.The current stuff I liked was mainly retro acts like Robert Gordon and George Thorogood.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

Live in Phoenix wrote:any number of rock stars dying,
I was much more interested in Roberto Clemente dying back then. The rock stars who died were mainly album rock acts that I had little or no interest in. I don't think I knew who Hendrix was until years after his death. I don't remember Morrison dying at the time. I turned 13 in 1970 and was mainly just into Top 40 until I dicovered 50s music in like late 1971 or early 1972.

I never heard of David Bowie until "Space Oddity" was a hit in 173.

My favorite act in those days was easily CCR.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Bruce wrote:
Live in Phoenix wrote:Not essential, but it'd be neat if someone who lived through all the '70s could provide an observation here & there, year to year (what it was like to hear about the Beatles breaking up, any number of rock stars dying, some genre like rap or disco sprouting up, etc.) I only had a whiff of the '70s and wouldn't qualify.
After about 1972 all I was interested in was 50s music. Most of the 70s stuff was just bad. A lot of boring housewife songs in the top 40, and at the time I hated most disco.The current stuff I liked was mainly retro acts like Robert Gordon and George Thorogood.
I despised disco starting around 1974. I was perhaps a bit quick to dismiss some performers (ABBA and the Bee Gees) that were derided by my peers. I also enjoyed Thorogood, but was not particularly familiar with his music until the early 1980's.

I plan to save most of my comments for discussions during the polls for each year.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by DaveC »

I grew up watching the Beatles on "Ready Steady Go", and well remember "Space Oddity" and "Your Song" being all over the radio in 1969. But the first single I bought was "Coz I Love You" by Slade in 1971. Then I stumbled upon "Meddle" & found John Peel. I enjoyed much of the music of the 1970's - but not the disco although I did dutifully take my wife to see "Saturday Night Fever" and "Grease". I'm not much of a writer, but I'll do my best to communicate some of the things I remember. Like Pink Floyd at Knebworth, The Clash at Hammersmith Palais, Genesis when they were good, U2 as a support band, Talking Heads in a muddy field singing about Buildings & Food, etc (Oh and Muddy Waters supporting Eric Clapton at the Concertgebow - that should please Bruce).
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by HRS »

DaveC wrote:I grew up watching the Beatles on "Ready Steady Go", and well remember "Space Oddity" and "Your Song" being all over the radio in 1969. But the first single I bought was "Coz I Love You" by Slade in 1971. Then I stumbled upon "Meddle" & found John Peel. I enjoyed much of the music of the 1970's - but not the disco although I did dutifully take my wife to see "Saturday Night Fever" and "Grease". I'm not much of a writer, but I'll do my best to communicate some of the things I remember. Like Pink Floyd at Knebworth, The Clash at Hammersmith Palais, Genesis when they were good, U2 as a support band, Talking Heads in a muddy field singing about Buildings & Food, etc (Oh and Muddy Waters supporting Eric Clapton at the Concertgebow - that should please Bruce).
DaveC, this would be superb! :mrgreen:
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by DocBrown »

DaveC wrote:I grew up watching the Beatles on "Ready Steady Go", and well remember "Space Oddity" and "Your Song" being all over the radio in 1969. But the first single I bought was "Coz I Love You" by Slade in 1971. Then I stumbled upon "Meddle" & found John Peel. I enjoyed much of the music of the 1970's - but not the disco although I did dutifully take my wife to see "Saturday Night Fever" and "Grease". I'm not much of a writer, but I'll do my best to communicate some of the things I remember. Like Pink Floyd at Knebworth, The Clash at Hammersmith Palais, Genesis when they were good, U2 as a support band, Talking Heads in a muddy field singing about Buildings & Food, etc (Oh and Muddy Waters supporting Eric Clapton at the Concertgebow - that should please Bruce).
Oh, I remember some great shows from the 70's as well... my very first concert in 1971, Carlos Santana on the Abraxas tour, ELP in 1977 on one of their two dates with a symphony orchestra (before they went broke touring with an orchestra), the Beach Boys at Crystal Beach, ironically the only time they ever played a beach concert! I'll try to help maintain that genuine flower child groove for you.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

DaveC wrote: "Your Song" being all over the radio in 1969.
Your memory's a little off, "Your Song" did not exist until near the latter part of 1970.
DaveC wrote: (Oh and Muddy Waters supporting Eric Clapton at the Concertgebow - that should please Bruce).
Quite the opposite. The fact that an act as great as Muddy needed to "support" some white rock musician in order to be validated pisses me the fuck off. Clapton should have been sucking Muddy's dick.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

DaveC wrote:I grew up watching the Beatles on "Ready Steady Go", and well remember "Space Oddity" and "Your Song" being all over the radio in 1969. But the first single I bought was "Coz I Love You" by Slade in 1971. Then I stumbled upon "Meddle" & found John Peel. I enjoyed much of the music of the 1970's - but not the disco although I did dutifully take my wife to see "Saturday Night Fever" and "Grease". I'm not much of a writer, but I'll do my best to communicate some of the things I remember. Like Pink Floyd at Knebworth, The Clash at Hammersmith Palais, Genesis when they were good, U2 as a support band, Talking Heads in a muddy field singing about Buildings & Food, etc (Oh and Muddy Waters supporting Eric Clapton at the Concertgebow - that should please Bruce).
Clearly there is no benefit to attempting to predict what will please the frequently annoying Bruce. His antipathy for Eric Clapton is getting to be fairly predictable. But, I really do not care very much about Bruce's annoying outbursts. I prefer to appreciate his knowledge and merely occasionally point out a disagreement on a subjective matter.

One of the key objections I have regarding Bruce's comments is that they imply that Bruce's subjective view has some special value. Unfortunately, Bruce does not typically provide an enlightening discussion as to why (musically) some performer is particularly enjoyable, but more often than not resorts to derivative criteria such as popularity or acclaim.

As a technologist/scientist and attorney and someone who has performed music, I strongly prefer the subjective view of someone who can clearly articulate his or her appreciation of an artist or a particular song in terms of art and technique instead of more derivative criteria.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

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Henry wrote:As a technologist/scientist and attorney and someone who has performed music, I strongly prefer the subjective view of someone who can clearly articulate his or her appreciation of an artist or a particular song in terms of art and technique instead of more derivative criteria.
I have no idea what you're being an attorney has to do with this, but I believe in the old adage,

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

There's no way to use words to explain to someone who does not "get it" why a certain song or musician is great to you. I can no sooner explain with words why Gene Chandler is enjoyable than I can explain with words why I prefer chocolate to vanilla. He just is (to me), and I just do.

I also do not believe that recording music is an art. I see it as a craft. Knowing when to use overdubs, when to use a particular instrument rather than another instrument, all that stuff to me is craftmanship.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

Henry wrote:Clearly there is no benefit to attempting to predict what will please the frequently annoying Bruce. His antipathy for Eric Clapton is getting to be fairly predictable.
As an attorney you should understand that Muddy Waters does not need Eric Clapton's endorsement for his music to be validated. It stands on its own as great whether or not any white rock and rollers like it or not.

Muddy was once asked if there would ever be a great white blues singer. His answer was "Maybe there could be one in 100 years."

I don't dislike Eric Clapton at all. What I dislike is that mindset that says that Eric Clapton is some kind of authority on the blues and that people only become interested in Robert Johnson and other great black bluesmen if some famous white rocker like Clapton endorses him.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Bruce wrote:
I don't dislike Eric Clapton at all. What I dislike is that mindset that says that Eric Clapton is some kind of authority on the blues and that people only become interested in Robert Johnson and other great black bluesmen if some famous white rocker like Clapton endorses him.
Looks like a strawman to me. Who has the mindset that you speak of.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

Henry wrote:
Bruce wrote:
I don't dislike Eric Clapton at all. What I dislike is that mindset that says that Eric Clapton is some kind of authority on the blues and that people only become interested in Robert Johnson and other great black bluesmen if some famous white rocker like Clapton endorses him.
Looks like a strawman to me. Who has the mindset that you speak of.
I run into people all the time who when Robert Johnson's name is mentioned, they immediately bring up Clapton. When an old bluesman would have a compilation released in the 70s or 80s it would invariably include an endorsement on the back cover from some white rock star saying how much he liked the artist. Leroy Carr was the biggest blues star of Johnson's time, but nobody knows who he is now because no white rock musicians have done his songs or talked about him like they have with Johnson. Johnson was a very minor act in his day.

If I mention Howlin' Wolf to any 60-65 year old white guy they want to talk about how Clapton and other white rock musicians played on his London Sessions album. That seems to impress them more than Wolf himself.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Blanco »

Whenever Bruce repeated the same sentence, I remember this:

Image

"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
- Famous saying of indeterminate origins

"Dancing about architecture is awesome."
- Not-so-famous saying

Found here.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

Blanco wrote: "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
- Famous saying of indeterminate origins
The Quote Investigator discusses this at some length, http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/11...g-about-music/, and considers Martin Mull the leading candidate for crafter of the maxim.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Blanco »

Bruce wrote:
Blanco wrote: "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
- Famous saying of indeterminate origins
The Quote Investigator discusses this at some length, http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/11...g-about-music/, and considers Martin Mull the leading candidate for crafter of the maxim.
Yeah... although from my point of view it sounds better in the mouth of Zappa.
I just copied and pasted the quotes, and that is why I gave the source, where there is the same link to the research that you give:
Incidental Comics wrote: "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
- Famous saying of indeterminate origins
Surely Grant Snider realized that although according to this research it seems the first to say it was Martin Mull, you can not say that for sure, so he chose to write "Famous saying of indeterminate origins" and give the link, instead of saying "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture." - Famous saying that the Quote Investigator discusses at some length, http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/11...g-about-music/, and considers Martin Mull the leading candidate for crafter of the maxim.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Bruce wrote:
Henry wrote:As a technologist/scientist and attorney and someone who has performed music, I strongly prefer the subjective view of someone who can clearly articulate his or her appreciation of an artist or a particular song in terms of art and technique instead of more derivative criteria.
I have no idea what you're being an attorney has to do with this, but I believe in the old adage,

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

There's no way to use words to explain to someone who does not "get it" why a certain song or musician is great to you. I can no sooner explain with words why Gene Chandler is enjoyable than I can explain with words why I prefer chocolate to vanilla. He just is (to me), and I just do.

I also do not believe that recording music is an art. I see it as a craft. Knowing when to use overdubs, when to use a particular instrument rather than another instrument, all that stuff to me is craftmanship.
I can't stop laughing about your so-called belief. You seem to spend a large portion of your day "writing about music" based on your contributions here and elsewhere.

Perhaps you should look into dancing about architecture. After all, Blanco has already provided you with a guide for such dances.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

Henry wrote:I can't stop laughing about your so-called belief. You seem to spend a large portion of your day "writing about music" based on your contributions here and elsewhere.
I almost never write about actual music. I write about chart positions, which songs I like best, lists, etc...I never write about WHY I like certain kinds of music better than other kinds of music. It can't really be explained with words. It would be like trying to use words to explain why you like the color blue better than the color green.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Bruce wrote:
Henry wrote:I can't stop laughing about your so-called belief. You seem to spend a large portion of your day "writing about music" based on your contributions here and elsewhere.
I almost never write about actual music. I write about chart positions, which songs I like best, lists, etc...I never write about WHY I like certain kinds of music better than other kinds of music. It can't really be explained with words. It would be like trying to use words to explain why you like the color blue better than the color green.
Bruce, there is some merit to your point, But, in my view perhaps not in the precise manner you intended to make said point.

First, I note that words such as "actual" are typically too vague to convey probative meaning.

Secondly, I readily acknowledge that it can be very difficult to articulate our explanations regarding preferences and core beliefs.

But, to the extent that the preferences and beliefs are important to us, it is in my view worthwhile to make diligent attempts to provide such articulations, however futile said attempts might appear at first to be.

In my view one of life's most edifying activities is to constantly attempt to understand and articulate the basis for one's preferences. I doubt that you share this view, and I am not attempting to convince you to change your view, instead I am merely expressing mine.

A relatively simple example of where such diligent attempts could bear fruit with relative ease would be if one assiduously studied neuroscience and endocrinology, so that explanations for preferences in many instances related to sensorial activities (such as color preferences) could be broadly articulated with some objective accuracy.

In my view, it is even more difficult to articulate the basis for our core beliefs (and I recognize that core beliefs are not a subject that is relevant to this forum). But said core beliefs largely determine who we are, and if we do not attempt to reasonably understand the bases for these beliefs, we are not likely to advance in our development as evolving humans.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Bruce »

Henry wrote: if we do not attempt to reasonably understand the bases for these beliefs, we are not likely to advance in our development as evolving humans.
I'd rather spend the time finding good records that I don't know about yet.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Bruce wrote:
Henry wrote: if we do not attempt to reasonably understand the bases for these beliefs, we are not likely to advance in our development as evolving humans.
I'd rather spend the time finding good records that I don't know about yet.
That preference appears to work well for you. Enjoy.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by TimmyWing »

Whoever ends up doing this poll, I am so ready for it. The '60s probably has my favourite albums overall, but the sheer amount of good music that was made in the '70s is just staggering. Plus, it's the decade in which punk arrived and I can only thank it for that! :D
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Moonbeam »

So far, it seems that JimmyJazz, Zorg, and I have raised our hands to co-host the poll. Should we try to set up a roster of years, or should we wait to see if someone else has enough free time to take command?
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Listyguy »

With the 80s poll ending later today (*tears*), I'm already getting excited for this poll. Based on how the polls usually work, it should start with 1970 opening on Feb 1. Who's running it?
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by JimmyJazz »

I guess it is easier if two people co-host these polls, so we have to figure this one out. I am willing to host half of the yearly polls, beginning with February's, but who wants to co-host the other years? So far there is either Zorg or Moonbeam, but I know Zorg said he is busy the first couple of months. Any thoughts on this guys?

PS: I am both really excited and nervous to host my first really big AMF poll!
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Zorg »

I can take 75-79, I should think! Though if Moonbeam wants in on the act, I'm happy to split.

I'm perfectly happy for you to kick us off though!
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Listyguy »

Thanks for taking this on, Jimmy and Zorg! Don't worry too much about it, although I would recommend looking at some of the old decade polls so you get an idea of what to do. That's what I did to prepare for the 80's poll.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Moonbeam »

I was happy to co-host, but I think it probably makes most sense to have 2 hosts to go along with the 2 polls at the end. Since 3 of us put our hands up and I've just hosted one, I think it's fair to let Mr. Jazz and Mr. Zorg have a turn. I'm happy to help out in whatever way I can, though!
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Jade Palooka »

Hi! Can anyone clue me in if it's still worth posting personal lists in these polls with a slight chance of getting a semi-decent album into the T20, or is the majority made up by first/second grade baby boomers with a clean-n-nice-vocal-harmony fetish by now? Just glanced over the last couple of threads, hence I'm wondering.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Jade Palooka wrote:Hi! Can anyone clue me in if it's still worth posting personal lists in these polls with a slight chance of getting a semi-decent album into the T20, or is the majority made up by first/second grade baby boomers with a clean-n-nice-vocal-harmony fetish by now? Just glanced over the last couple of threads, hence I'm wondering.
Good to see that your back in the forum even if it is for just a single post so far.

I'm not sure that you will find success with your "semi-decent" albums in the top 20. But, I can assure that your clever retorts have been missed. I hope to read more of your comments either in regard to the poll or perhaps in the Moderately Acclaimed albums competition. Your semi-decent albums would have had a much easier time being considered in the MA competition.

I would also enjoy reading some of your cryptic remarks as you interact with our new contributor Bruce. Perhaps you two will enjoy each other's wit.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Jade Palooka »

Hi, Henry! Glad to see you still on board in here... "semi-decent" refers to all the albums that are secretly filled with ear shattering sparkles and milestone fibres but - for some reason - pronounce too many flaws to be considered true classics in the mind_ear_drum of the average record collector. I vividly recall the last 70s poll I participated in (2009?) and the mithril mines of some users's lists I was lucky to exploit/add something worthwhile to with my nominées. It was quite a pleasant ride and I liked the outcome. So how are the chances for a repeat? And yeah, Bruce sounds just like my Dad, a tad more civil though. New Jersey ain't no Berlin, that's for sure.
Henry
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Henry »

Jade Palooka wrote:Hi, Henry! Glad to see you still on board in here... "semi-decent" refers to all the albums that are secretly filled with ear shattering sparkles and milestone fibres but - for some reason - pronounce too many flaws to be considered true classics in the mind_ear_drum of the average record collector. I vividly recall the last 70s poll I participated in (2009?) and the mithril mines of some users's lists I was lucky to exploit/add something worthwhile to with my nominées. It was quite a pleasant ride and I liked the outcome. So how are the chances for a repeat? And yeah, Bruce sounds just like my Dad, a tad more civil though. New Jersey ain't no Berlin, that's for sure.
As long as the sparkles aren't from Captain Beefheart, I'm looking forward to listening to your suggestions.
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Jade Palooka
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Jade Palooka »

BOOOOH!
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Jade Palooka
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Jade Palooka »

Julie Tippetts. Sunset Glow. Right up your alley of word cascades and melody and regrets! :)
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Jade Palooka
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Jade Palooka »

pshh... it's a Julie Driscoll record released in 1975. please consider it for your charts.
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Moonbeam »

NJ! The Associates and Milli Vanilli would have appreciated your support for the 80s poll. :( My FB account also misses you. :(

Hope you submit lists that I can mine for recommendations for the 70s, and that we can get some T5s going again.
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Jade Palooka
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Jade Palooka »

my apologies.. :( ... still busy recovering from too much audio feed... btw Bros' Drop The Boy is the greatest slo-mo romp The Chiffons HAD to perform. Did Communards' So Cold The Night make the 80s song poll by any chance?
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Jade Palooka
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Re: Next decade poll : the 70's? Who's hosting it?

Post by Jade Palooka »

and yeah! T5s are planet!
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