Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

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Edre Depeche Head
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Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

As a big Kanye fan, Donda is both better and worse than my expectations. Let me put it plainly, this is the opposite problem Jesus Is King had. JIK was way too short and incomplete whereas Donda was too big but still incomplete. Kanye who has been a perfectionist most of his career really didn't care about how bloated Donda was and honestly it both hurts and helps the album. On one side of the coin, some of Kanye's greatest recent tracks appear on this album. Tracks like Hurricane, Praise God, Believe What I Say, Jesus Lord, No Child Left Behind, etc... are genuinely solid tracks that are really well executed. The problem though is that I genuinely really like 9-10 songs on an album with like 23 tracks so the rest of the tracks range from decent but forgettable to incomplete and pointless. I really appreciate the ambition that went into this passion but this project was never finished. If he cut the project in half and polished up the highlights this would be an excellent album but as long as tracks such as the Pop Smoke cut, Junya, and the incomplete Jail are on this project it will be a weird detour in his discography.

Overall, I really want to like this album more than I did. And while I did think it was a decent project that only needs some tracks cut and minor tweaking to make it great, in its current form it is one of Kanye's weakest projects.

My ranking of Kanye's albums now with Donda is the following.

1. Yeezus
2. 808s & Heartbreak
3. Kids See Ghosts
4. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy
5. Watch The Throne
6. Ye
7. Late Registration
8. The Life of Pablo
9. The College Dropout
10. Graduation
11. Donda
12. Jesus Is King
13. Cruel Summer
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by bootsy »

I can't take you seriously when you have TCD, Graduation and LR in the lower half of his discography. And some of those (KSG, WTT) I don't count because they aren't his solo albums.

My thoughts on Donda are that I like it on one listen so far. The thing about Kanye with me are his albums have always been growers upon each listen. Donda will probably never crack his top 5 for me (LR, TCD, Graduation, Yeezus, MBDTF). That's just how deep his discography is. It may or may not be better than TLOP but it's definitely better than Ye and Jesus is King.
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by Bruno »

bootsy wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:50 am I can't take you seriously when you have TCD, Graduation and LR in the lower half of his discography. And some of those (KSG, WTT) I don't count because they aren't his solo albums.

My thoughts on Donda are that I like it on one listen so far. The thing about Kanye with me are his albums have always been growers upon each listen. Donda will probably never crack his top 5 for me (LR, TCD, Graduation, Yeezus, MBDTF). That's just how deep his discography is. It may or may not be better than TLOP but it's definitely better than Ye and Jesus is King.
I haven't heard it yet, but I've already downloaded it from Spotify.

Off-topic, bootsy, are you going to post your songs list today?
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by bootsy »

Bruno wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:25 am
bootsy wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:50 am I can't take you seriously when you have TCD, Graduation and LR in the lower half of his discography. And some of those (KSG, WTT) I don't count because they aren't his solo albums.

My thoughts on Donda are that I like it on one listen so far. The thing about Kanye with me are his albums have always been growers upon each listen. Donda will probably never crack his top 5 for me (LR, TCD, Graduation, Yeezus, MBDTF). That's just how deep his discography is. It may or may not be better than TLOP but it's definitely better than Ye and Jesus is King.
I haven't heard it yet, but I've already downloaded it from Spotify.

Off-topic, bootsy, are you going to post your songs list today?
The all time songs list? I'm not doing one. I did that once and it was a chore plus I'm not a songs person anyway. I've been looking at everyone else's lists and I'll await the results as a spectator only. :mrgreen:
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by prosecutorgodot »

Definitely better than Jesus is King [2]
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by acr0320 »

Like all of his albums, Donda’s pretty flawed but it’s got some of the best music I’ve heard all year. Jesus Lord and Come to Life are instantly among my favorite songs of his. I’d give it an 8/10 and have a feeling in the future it will grow more on me. It’s somewhere in that 5-7 range for me in the Kanye rankings with Late Registration & Kids See Ghosts
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by Rob »

So, since I chose to listen to Donda twice for Moderately Acclaimed Albums of 2021 I have been thinking a lot about it and about Kanye's rather odd place in music at this specific moment in time. I wanted to write about it, but felt that a celebratory topic like MAA isn't the place, so I place it here. To be clear: I don't like Donda and in this piece I’m not going to be kind to it. This is all an opinion based on personal observations and doesn’t mean to be anything else, so I hope nobody who loves this album takes offense. I would actually be interested in hearing why the album works for you.




How much do you need to like Kanye West to like Donda? When listening to this album I get the feeling that I need to have some inbuilt adoration for the man and his career to appreciate it. To be clear, I never quite understood the genius that people found in Mr. West. I always thought of him as an extraordinary producer whose work was brought down by himself as a performer. He is at best a mediocre rapper and a very bad singer, something not even the best autotune in the world can hide. Worse though, are his lyrics. In the beginning of his career they held some interest when even if I thought the execution was clumsy they at times held a unique point of view. This decreased as time went on when Kanye’s self-obsession grew and any semblance to interest in the outside world left his vision.

Part of the problem is with me. I struggle to come up with any artist who I find less relatable than Kanye West. I do not mean Kanye West the person. There are probably worse people than him in real life whose music I can still listen to. I’m talking about Kanye West the artist. His main theme when taken all his work together is, I think, his God complex, ironic for someone who increasingly inserts his devotion in his songs. It was there from the beginning, but more and more his albums seemed to be about being a genius in a world that just can’t handle Kanye’s divinity. Sometimes he can’t even handle it himself. If My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is indeed his masterpiece, it is because it is the most artistic and even philosophic deconstruction of Kanye’s ego. The appeal of such a thing is lost on me and I’ve found no way to relate to even that album, but I’ll admit that it is a vision.

However, what happens when everything about this vision has been said? That’s the crux of the problem I’m getting at: Kanye West has somewhere lost something to say and maybe even the drive to say anything. What he hasn’t lost is his ego, his need to assert his dominance in the field. It seems of utmost importance to him that he is still the Great Genius, which let him to a new and extremely confused phase in his career. Yeezus, despite it’s ridiculous title and wacky release, was a mere signal, as it was still an album with merit. It might be his best sounding album, even.

After that we got the bizarre release and campaign of The Life of Pablo. That album got mixed reviews at first, but has been increasingly well thought of. I don’t understand why. To me it is a deep drop in quality over the preceding albums, with sounds that don’t gel and lyrics that were embarrassing. Famous might be the most pathetic song I have ever heard by anyone, even if it is meant as a joke. After The Life of Pablo the career of West seemed to be more about strange release schedules with months or even years of pre-hype, alternated with some odd singles. With every new release, be they album or single, it felt like West was sinking in a swamp of his own creation, repeating themes all dealing with his own life seemingly without end. I couldn’t bring me to listen to it all; definitely not the two religious releases.

Donda was actually my first check-in with Kanye since Kids See Ghost. I would not have listened to it if it didn’t appear in the Moderately Acclaimed game, because frankly I don’t have the will-power anymore to struggle through Kanye’s narcissistic thought streams. There’s too much other music to listen to! But dedicated as I am to these forum games I went on and listened to this twice, because I always listen to albums twice in Moderately Acclaimed. At first there was relief, because at least it sounded good; far better than anything I heard of him post-Yeezus. That was only at the beginning, though. Not that the sound ever becomes bad, but it is very repetitive. There are barely any musical ideas in this 108 minute album. It mostly the same buzzing and droning beats over hollow spaces, filled with Kanye’s relentlessly sad-sack vocals.

The real problem though is in the lyrics. It might seem strange to say that it is obvious that someone who made an almost two hour album has nothing left to say, but I think the length is actually a result of that very problem. By now, Kanye is repeating himself over and over and over and over. Of course, this is literally the case in that the last four songs are remixes of tracks we heard earlier, but it is also true in that these stories and themes he shares have been repeated in his previous work over and over and over. And that is where my opening question comes in: How much do you need to like Kanye West to like Donda? I feel like you need to relate extremely to Kanye West as a person to be able to still appreciate this amount of navel gazing and repetition. You also have to find his personal life very, very interesting. Since he can’t come up with anything new to say or new ways to say them, he just keeps repeating old hits in increasingly more literal and egotistical forms until they lost all poetic potential and become a self-obsessed ramble.

For example: the title character, Donda West. Kanye’s mother. I can completely relate to the grief. Grief is as universal a theme as you can get. A great artist can use the personal to make something universal. Perhaps Kanye could do this too when he first made music about Donda’s death. By now the feeling seems different. By making so many tracks about his mother it becomes a cheap trick, as if it is the only thing he can evoke to feel emotion anymore.

Worst is his use of religion in his lyrics. I’m not opposed to religion in art at all, but for Kanye West it has become a crutch so he doesn’t have to deal with the outside world any longer. When Kanye does something good it is God’s will. If Kanye does something bad it is God’s will. If anything happens it is God’s will. No questions need to be asked anymore. There is no more morality, no more struggle, no more responsibility and definitely no introspection. Kanye’s God is Pink Floyd’s The Wall: something to keep the world outside so Kanye can isolate himself.

So Donda is the work from someone who has shut the world out and only mulls in his head over his own obsessions. The only thing that gets in are compliments from other people (a common thing for narcissists). So a man thanking Kanye on the telephone for his help gets heard twice. When Kanye was asked why he featured homophobic rapper DaBaby on one of his track his answer was because he was “the only person who said he would vote for me in public”, as if that is of any concern to anyone. His friendliness comes always of as self-serving (I don’t have energy left to go further into having Marilyn Manson sing that God is gonna bail him out of jail).

Now, for his biggest fans this might all add up to his most personal work. It is indeed his most personal in that it keeps repeating his own obsessions into the ground without any regard of a surrounding world. The same goes for your average Facebook post and we don’t call those art either (and I hope we never will). Art is when somebody takes these experiences and makes them into something beyond themselves. I feel that Kanye at the moment is not capable of this. I think people call Donda ‘ambitious’ purely because of its length. Artistically, any ambition has long left the building. The length is there so that we might think it is important. It seems we'll even be getting a Donda 2, which will likely be even longer.

There might be worse albums than Donda out there in many ways, but hardly one that feels more empty or struggling for a reason for existence. Getting through it was a real slog.
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by FrankLotion »

I've been meaning to talk about this record at some point too, I was late to the party in that I first heard it last month so there were several months of hearing nothing but awful things about it. And honestly? They're kind of right, but I will say my feelings overall on it are more complicated. Last year I made a lengthy post in our Kanye poll talking about his unique position in my life in how much of an impact his music made on me even if he isn't my favorite artist, I didn't necessarily want to bring up my feelings on everything that went wrong with his career in that thread so this highly polarizing album seems to be a good discussion point for it.

I would definitely push back on the notion that the main theme of his career is his God complex even if that is just mentioned as a joke, I would say the first part of his career is thematically rich with themes ranging anywhere from job anxiety, or drug abuse, or his faith, or even sober looks at his mortality. I also think that My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy shouldn't get pigeonholed into an analysis of his ego and budding God complex when looking back (though that is there). He doesn't get enough credit for the complicated ways he talks about how this ego and his fame collides with the very real grief, suicidal thoughts, and insecurities he was feeling at the time (not to mention many many other themes dealing with shame from sex, dependence on consumption, and overall indulgence that are all too extensive of conversations to mention here). I'd say if anything, rather than just asserting a God complex I would say his work in the 2010's since MBDTF is more about these lingering insecurities than anything else, whether he is self-aware about them or not.

On that note, I think that is really where his work post-Yeezus starts falling apart for me. Yeezus to me is still a fascinating listening experience but I think like most people The Life of Pablo really started to show the writing on the wall to me at that point. Admittedly that album has gotten a little more enjoyable after he remastered it a little bit but ultimately the whole experience is still a bit aimless and has lyrics that are provoking only in a way of demonstrating how half-assed his effort was becoming. With the exception of Kids See Ghosts, this has only amplified in the years since where his lyrics have become truly vacuous at times and shuns any attempts at editing the mess of songs he releases. And don't get me started on his whole "slavery was a choice" nonsense that happened during this period, that was truly inexcusable.

This all led to me really not having much anticipation at all for his new album, which is why it took so long to get around to it. In regards to Donda, there's a whole lot wrong with it, from what's becoming characteristic of Kanye in delivering grating and obnoxious lyrics to the brutally interminable album length; it's not a terribly fun or enriching experience in any measure. Right now it stands at the very bottom of my year-end list for 2021 (but still made it on the list nonetheless) because of these aspects. And, as Rob mentioned, his continued disregard for the reasons why some of the people he associates with have been so problematic lately creates a real mental block for me in enjoying the vast majority of this project. This ranges from Dababy's homophobic rants to the abhorrent allegations that are now following Marilyn Manson, but this isn't anything particularly new since he has long supported the known abuser and all-around asshole Chris Brown as well as publicly supporting you-know-who's reelection. It's pretty despicable, and it's impossible not to be actively troubled by it when listening to Donda given that he openly flaunts some of these people in the songs themselves.

With that said, I actually did end up liking this album more than any of his other solo projects since Pablo. I think most of the praise I would level at it would be exclusively as an aesthetic work, with some of the production sounding like a real evolution of his sound so far that I will admit comes across as some level of ambition left in the tank. I understand that any enjoyment that can be taken from the music comes down to subjectivity even more than usual in this case but I really do find the stark backdrop of "Jail" that's pierced by those scuzzy guitars does muster a lot of excitement going in, which is helped by a chorus that brings to mind some of his other gospel-influenced stuff but gets elevated just by how emotively he yells it out. I'm not thrilled by how anonymous the trap hi-hats sound on "Off the Grid" but he uses the vocal sample in the back to give the track a lot of griminess that I find very fun. I also don't share the enthusiasm for "Hurricane" that a lot of people have given how annoying I find Kanye's "mmm-mmm-mmm-mm-mm" ad-libs to be, and I don't care for the painfully drab vocals from who I think is Future (who cares) but the Weeknd's echoey hook sounds fantastic to my ears and it did get stuck in my head for a while after I heard it. I honestly love "Moon" even if I can admit it's not terribly complicated, the overlapping vocals from Don Toliver sound incredible and they hit the pleasure centers in my brain like crazy which is a nice feeling given the shittiness of the songs that come right before and after.

All in all, I don't hate it. I do think to some degree it does not deserve the reputation it has as being his worst album (which would be Ye) since it does seem like on some level he is giving a shit, and sometimes it actually works! If I was to take its score on Metacritic extremely literally I would say it's accurate in the sense that I just find it middling on the balance. It doesn't necessarily make me excited to see what he does next but I probably will check it when it drops out of curiosity if anything. I will say that I couldn't imagine enduring this album in its entirety for a whole second listen so you have my sympathies Rob.

Speaking of which, you talking about him using religion as a crutch and analogizing it with The Wall is a spicy hot take that for some reason never occurred to me, I think you're right on the money. Though I do think that his incorporation of his mother Donda onto Donda is also a bit of a crutch rather than a cheap trick, or at least I don't think it's that cynical. I think if anything after all these years he still hasn't found a healthy or even articulated perspective on the death of his mother. I generally get the impression in Kanye's music that for better or for worse he is being honest, I think he just has a stunning lack of ability to be deeply introspective anymore, which admittedly is likely worsened by his very real mental health conditions (and very real neglect of them as well).

Final side note: Kanye has never been a great singer and he still isn't but I'd say he has usually been perfectly serviceable for the the type of songs he writes and the years he's spent with vocal coaches over the last decade has shown some improvement to the point that I think it can be quite nice at times. "Runaway," "Only One," "Moon," or even "Spaceship" from back in the day come to mind.
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by Rob »

Thanks for your comment, FrankLotion. It is very insightful and well-written.
FrankLotion wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:20 pm Last year I made a lengthy post in our Kanye poll talking about his unique position in my life in how much of an impact his music made on me even if he isn't my favorite artist
I went back and read that post. It seems that Kanye West plays the part for you that Bob Dylan played in my life.
For me Kanye West has always been the opposite of that: the one artist that everybody and their dog gushes about and I've never been able to connect to. Even at their best I find his songs very flawed.
I would definitely push back on the notion that the main theme of his career is his God complex even if that is just mentioned as a joke, I would say the first part of his career is thematically rich with themes ranging anywhere from job anxiety, or drug abuse, or his faith, or even sober looks at his mortality.
Maybe God complex isn't the best word for it, although it captures what I'm getting at. I know there is personal doubt and a history of mental problems in Kanye's music. There is a lot of that in Donda too. The problem for me has always been that I never felt Kanye really connected with anything outside himself. A good example is Diamonds of Sierra Leone, which is basically a protest song against blood diamonds, but Kanye's verses can only pull the subject towards himself. We all see and judge the world through our own minds, but most people can at least understand the world a little bit in objective terms and that is mostly missing in Kanye's lyrics. For me that is where much of the best lyrics are written: on the threshold of the personal and the universal. I use God complex not just because Kanye views himself as a God (though at times he does), but also because he can't view the world without himself as the center of it. Case in point: Donda is in a way dedicated to his mother, but the only sound sample of her voice is her praising her son.
I also think that My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy shouldn't get pigeonholed into an analysis of his ego and budding God complex when looking back (though that is there). He doesn't get enough credit for the complicated ways he talks about how this ego and his fame collides with the very real grief, suicidal thoughts, and insecurities he was feeling at the time (not to mention many many other themes dealing with shame from sex, dependence on consumption, and overall indulgence that are all too extensive of conversations to mention here).
Yes, but all these elements seem part of the ego deconstruction for me. MBDTF may be his best work because it may be the most honest depiction of his major subject: how Kanye is built. Maybe it is richer than I remember; it's not an album I particularly revisit often.
I generally get the impression in Kanye's music that for better or for worse he is being honest, I think he just has a stunning lack of ability to be deeply introspective anymore, which admittedly is likely worsened by his very real mental health conditions (and very real neglect of them as well).
I can kind of agree with this, but I would add that I feel that Kanye needs to connect with the outside world again. Maybe that has become hard because he has become not just famous, but also notorious, which makes people have made up their mind of you. Still, I feel the current route is an artistic dead end. Maybe for now focusing on producing for others is the solution?
Final side note: Kanye has never been a great singer and he still isn't but I'd say he has usually been perfectly serviceable for the the type of songs he writes and the years he's spent with vocal coaches over the last decade has shown some improvement to the point that I think it can be quite nice at times. "Runaway," "Only One," "Moon," or even "Spaceship" from back in the day come to mind.
Interesting, as I find Runaway the prime example for how Kanye's vocals don't work. There is just so little flow or music in them that it drags the song down. Too bad, because otherwise it would perhaps be a 9 out of 10 for me.
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Re: Kanye West - Donda (Discussion Thread)

Post by FrankLotion »

Rob wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:05 pm Thanks for your comment, FrankLotion. It is very insightful and well-written.
I don’t think I’ll have time over the next couple days to respond to your whole post but I appreciate the response and thoughts as always!
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