Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

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Edre Depeche Head
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Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

Apparently he had some ultimatum with Spotify over an issue with Joe Rogan.

Here is what Pitchfork has to say

"Earlier this week, Neil Young briefly posted an open letter to his website urging his record label and management to scrub his music from Spotify, accusing the platform of “spreading fake information about vaccines” by hosting The Joe Rogan Experience. Now, Spotify is pulling Young’s work from streaming, according to a statement from a Spotify spokesperson. As of this writing, some of Young’s albums remain on Spotify."

https://pitchfork.com/news/spotify-agre ... n-podcast/
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jirin »

I agree with the principle of what Young is doing. But it seems like it's more a show of principle than anything designed to accomplish anything. If anything it'll make antivaxxers like Rogan more.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

Jirin wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:04 pm I agree with the principle of what Young is doing. But it seems like it's more a show of principle than anything designed to accomplish anything. If anything it'll make antivaxxers like Rogan more.
Yeah. I am frustrated because now his stuff is out of my playlists but at least I own vinyls and CDs of my two fav Young albums
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Henry »

Young's courageous move should be the start of a movement by artists who stand for truth.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Listyguy »

Yeah, Neil Young alone isn't going to get Spotify to change, but if a decent chunk of more popular artists followed him down that path, then you might see some action.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Father2TheMan »

Listyguy wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:23 pm Yeah, Neil Young alone isn't going to get Spotify to change, but if a decent chunk of more popular artists followed him down that path, then you might see some action.
I agree with this statement.

I would be lying if I said I wasn't unhappy that I can't stream Young now (I don't own very much of his stuff physically) but I do think that Rogan's misinformation is dangerous and I appreciate Neil's stand on this.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by FrankLotion »

Disappointing for sure but he's doing it for a great cause so I can't be too upset. It's not a perfect substitute but you all may want to check out the "Neil Young Archives" if you haven't already, I have it on iPhone but I'm not sure what else it may be on. The app itself is free and while most of the albums on there you need to pay to listen whenever you want, he does showcase an album a day you can stream for free at great audio quality. Today the album is Tonight's the Night and every once in a while I'll see even more popular stuff like After the Gold Rush or Harvest available for free.

I can't quite remember but I think he also has whatever new release he's promoting available for free for a few months as well, which fortunately he is still very prolific so that happens often.


Edit: Forgot to mention that Buffalo Springfield and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young albums are also on there.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by androve »

He is right, but it's not going to change things, unfortunately.

Will miss being able to listen to his stuff within my playlists.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Sweepstakes Ron »

What I don't quite get is, is Neil doing this out of principle and nothing more, or does he genuinely expect change to come out of this? Obviously, him leaving on his own wouldn't ever change Spotify's mind, but I can't honestly believe that Neil would think any other artists of note would follow his lead. I don't think anyone less popular than Taylor Swift leaving would spur Spotify to action, and even then it'd have to be multiple current megastars exiting en masse.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jackson »

Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:28 pm What I don't quite get is, is Neil doing this out of principle and nothing more, or does he genuinely expect change to come out of this? Obviously, him leaving on his own wouldn't ever change Spotify's mind, but I can't honestly believe that Neil would think any other artists of note would follow his lead. I don't think anyone less popular than Taylor Swift leaving would spur Spotify to action, and even then it'd have to be multiple current megastars exiting en masse.
It would probably take even more than that, like an entire record label. Really hard to picture it given the financial commitment they gave Rogan, unless there is some for-cause out in their contract.

This is a microcosm of the broader social discussion around the role of the powerful technology platforms. When you choose to engage with Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc., how do you reconcile that with some of the negative impacts that these platforms have? How do these platforms balance free speech considerations when it comes to inappropriate/hateful/dangerous content? Young's stance was certainly a principled one, but to be logically consistent he would probably have to pull all of his social media given the amount of vaccine disinformation throughout society at this point.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jirin »

What would happen though if Spotify actually did remove Joe Rogan?

He’d go somewhere else and his plays would double as a “Cancel culture” martyr.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by BleuPanda »

Jirin wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:05 pm What would happen though if Spotify actually did remove Joe Rogan?

He’d go somewhere else and his plays would double as a “Cancel culture” martyr.
This isn't necessarily true. There have been several people who got de-platformed that we really don't hear from anymore. Milo Yiannopoulos used to be everywhere, but a few groups pulling their support completely erased his presence.

However, I don't think Rogan is quite on that level, but I do think removing him from Spotify would reduce his presence. Ease of access is a big part of success, and anyone who would treat Rogan as a martyr is likely already listening to him. Also, I think it is important to note Spotify's monetary investment in Rogan - would he find another company willing to match that price?
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Rob »

BleuPanda wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:16 pm
Jirin wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:05 pm What would happen though if Spotify actually did remove Joe Rogan?

He’d go somewhere else and his plays would double as a “Cancel culture” martyr.
This isn't necessarily true. There have been several people who got de-platformed that we really don't hear from anymore. Milo Yiannopoulos used to be everywhere, but a few groups pulling their support completely erased his presence.

However, I don't think Rogan is quite on that level, but I do think removing him from Spotify would reduce his presence. Ease of access is a big part of success, and anyone who would treat Rogan as a martyr is likely already listening to him. Also, I think it is important to note Spotify's monetary investment in Rogan - would he find another company willing to match that price?
Rogan was already huge before the Spotify investment, though. I don't think he really needed the support, but liked the money.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Live in Phoenix »

Now Joni Mitchell

Joni Mitchell Says She’s Removing Music From Spotify: ‘Irresponsible People Are Spreading Lies’
https://variety.com/2022/music/news/jon ... 235166691/
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Henry »

We need to distinguish between "cancel culture" and consequences for harming others.

No more excuses for antivax liars!
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by luvulongTIM »

Jirin wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:05 pm What would happen though if Spotify actually did remove Joe Rogan?

He’d go somewhere else and his plays would double as a “Cancel culture” martyr.
Well when he wasn’t playing the martyr he was taking credit for canceling Carlos Mencia and wouldn’t let up on it even though everyone and their dog had known he was stealing jokes. Rogans claim to fame started by burying him and playing the Ronan Farrow role of claiming responsibility. I’m dating myself here but I call him Piscapo 2.0 for basically being cut from the same cloth physically and talent wise but where as Joe Piscapo just went along with it saying he’d take up working out on his off time and looking like Rambo which people like to joke about. Rogan however clung to any element of fame he could possibly take advantage of to stay relevant and this is where my next dated nickname for him comes up: Dana White Female for the way he pretty much transformed into Dana White LITE before our very eyes. At the time there weren’t too many English speaking retired legends to do play by play so again this is where Rogan knew to do so much kissing up he ends up mirroring his idols mannerisms and look and where most people would find that “Single White Female” hella creepers, Dana White apparently found it flattering. And ever since he basically got the go ahead to live that MMA champion McGregor party lifestyle especially to promote an event and this led to the podcast and so on. People who were as batshit bonkers as he is found his shock jock tone be music to their ears to get this at lease sort on the subject of music.The roid rage is infectious to some. And yes paranoia is a main affect from juicing no matter how Fox NEWS tries to spin in into that conspiracy theory element. But yeah if putting a needle to his arm gets him up and arms might I suggest shoving it in above the thigh like he’s used to if you get my gist. Don’t just do the math, do the Scott Steiner math to quote one of the most notorious abusers. I notice he’s far from the only muscle meathead jock to go the anti vax route so when I bring up the juicing I’m usually at the brunt of that very roid rage. Oh well if they’re fine with putting that into their bodies over something proven to be far less harmful, I say voice it and call them out on it. May be getting off the topic music but where exactly is the comedy Joe? Even people agreeing with him, what does this have to do with comedy? Again it’s all about him clinging to fame when completely abandoning his “craft” altogether. But he’s where he wants to be and us music enthusiasts are going to suffer because of it in the end.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Schüttelbirne »

I did some looking up and this is the timeline I think (please correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Joe Rogan has Robert Malone on the podcast.
2. An open letter is published demanding Spotify implement effective measures to stop the spread of misinformation (basically introducing a clear misinformation policy, which is a reasonable request).
3. Young reads that letter (I assume, because why else does this happen now?) and demands Spotify take Rogan down immediately or he will leave (which is not so reasonable).

I feel like Young escalated this rather quickly. I don't know the podcast (and I'm not gonna listen to it because each episode is like over two hours long and who has the time?), but I think he could have reached far more if his demand were not so excessive. Banning his entire presence from the platform in full knowledge of a multi-million-dollar deal is a demand Young must have been sure would not lead to success.
Spotify would probably have to prove Rogan violated some of their terms in a major way and I'm not sure if misinformation applies here if Spotify does not have a misinformation policy (as that open letter said, I'm not sure if that is true). It's not like he couldn't sue, and since Spotify isn't very profitable this could be potentially dangerous for them (I just assume those reports about US courts granting excessively large sums of money are true).

Also, on a different note: If they would comply, wouldn't that immediately motivate political interest groups to boycott Spotify too until they fulfill their demands (I'm thinking BDS etc.)?
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Romain »

The "problem" with all this story is that it brings me to know the existence of this Joe Rogan when I had never heard of him before!

He doesn't seem like a nice guy from your posts and I would have preferred that this guy not be known around the world because of Young and that he remain a strictly North American problem!
'm afraid that it has opened up an audience of several hundred million ears rather than the other way around to the whole planet that has just learned of his existence because of this case.

EDIT:
And lo and behold, right after I write this, I come across this article in the most widly published free newspaper in France.
It pisses me off this free, worldwide publicity for a guy who looks like a not very respectable guy.
https://www.20minutes.fr/arts-stars/cul ... neil-young
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Schüttelbirne »

Schüttelbirne wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:41 am
2. An open letter is published demanding Spotify implement effective measures to stop the spread of misinformation (basically introducing a clear misinformation policy, which is a reasonable request).

Spotify would probably have to prove Rogan violated some of their terms in a major way and I'm not sure if misinformation applies here if Spotify does not have a misinformation policy (as that open letter said, I'm not sure if that is true). It's not like he couldn't sue, and since Spotify isn't very profitable this could be potentially dangerous for them (I just assume those reports about US courts granting excessively large sums of money are true).
There's an article about this which basically strengthens my point:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/28/2290 ... n-policies

Their moderation policies are very lenient, and they apparently reviewed the episodes in question and decided they do not meet the criteria for removal (so removal is an option).
So what people should be focusing on is getting Spotify to have stricter moderation policies, which would be more effective than the rather populist demand to remove one podcaster (even if he is the biggest one) from the platform, because others are still allowed to say "vaccines are deadly" as long as they don't imply that they were designed to kill people.

(This policy might also be specifically designed to let the stuff on Rogan's podcast slide while still pretending to have policies present. I'm just not in a position to have an opinion on that).
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by BleuPanda »

I think it's important to note that Neil Young has inspired many people to unsubscribe from Spotify, to the point that the unsubscribe function has apparently stopped working due to volume. Their stock prices have also tumbled this week. We'll see how much that sticks, but I think Spotify is more likely to listen to their stock prices than the protest itself.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by ProjectTermina »

Joni Mitchell plans to follow suit: https://variety.com/2022/music/news/jon ... 235166691/
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

This is going to sound quite selfish but I actually hope more artists dont follow suit. It is just going to make the listen I g expierence much more difficult and I have a gut feeling even with artists leaving Spotify wont change a thing.

Also, considering Young wanted then to remove episodes with misinformation, I actually am not fully on his side because in my eyes unfortunately conspiracy is part of free speech and Spotify shouldn't have the right to remove what they deem isnt accurate because they are not an Oracle of truth.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by BleuPanda »

Edre Peraza wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:00 pm This is going to sound quite selfish but I actually hope more artists dont follow suit. It is just going to make the listen I g expierence much more difficult and I have a gut feeling even with artists leaving Spotify wont change a thing.

Also, considering Young wanted then to remove episodes with misinformation, I actually am not fully on his side because in my eyes unfortunately conspiracy is part of free speech and Spotify shouldn't have the right to remove what they deem isnt accurate because they are not an Oracle of truth.
A business shouldn't have the right to decide what goes on their service? You think they should be legally forced to distribute misinformation? That's a completely backwards take.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

BleuPanda wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:10 pm
Edre Peraza wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:00 pm This is going to sound quite selfish but I actually hope more artists dont follow suit. It is just going to make the listen I g expierence much more difficult and I have a gut feeling even with artists leaving Spotify wont change a thing.

Also, considering Young wanted then to remove episodes with misinformation, I actually am not fully on his side because in my eyes unfortunately conspiracy is part of free speech and Spotify shouldn't have the right to remove what they deem isnt accurate because they are not an Oracle of truth.
A business shouldn't have the right to decide what goes on their service? You think they should be legally forced to distribute misinformation? That's a completely backwards take.
All I am saying is that in my eyes Spotify isnt a news app and shouldn't of ever had Podcasts in the first place. It doesnt matter if I am right or wrong but my personal belief is that a music streaming platform should have never opened the door for this to happen in the first place
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by jamieW »

This will probably end the same way it often does. Rogan, feeling increasingly emboldened by his support and popularity, will keep pushing the envelope until he eventually says something so offensive that even Spotify has to give him the boot. It's just sad to me that so many businesses are so blinded by the money that they can't see this coming in advance. Rogan is one of those meatheads that morons view as "smart" because he gives voice to their ignorant viewpoints on a large platform (like Tucker Carlson). Basically, thinking horsey meds "cured" your COVID is not any different than taking any medication that didn't kill you, naturally recovering from the disease process, and then claiming the so-called meds are what did it. Might as well place a "magic rock" in your pocket and claim that's the miracle cure if you're fortunate enough to recover. I prefer to follow the indisputable science proving the effectiveness of the vaccines over the rare examples of severe adverse effects the anti-vaxxers trot out, but that's just me. (My entire family is vaccinated with no issues. Also, not one of us has caught the virus yet.) But to each their own, I suppose...
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Henry »

jamieW wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:36 pm This will probably end the same way it often does. Rogan, feeling increasingly emboldened by his support and popularity, will keep pushing the envelope until he eventually says something so offensive that even Spotify has to give him the boot. It's just sad to me that so many businesses are so blinded by the money that they can't see this coming in advance. Rogan is one of those meatheads that morons view as "smart" because he gives voice to their ignorant viewpoints on a large platform (like Tucker Carlson). Basically, thinking horsey meds "cured" your COVID is not any different than taking any medication that didn't kill you, naturally recovering from the disease process, and then claiming the so-called meds are what did it. Might as well place a "magic rock" in your pocket and claim that's the miracle cure if you're fortunate enough to recover. I prefer to follow the indisputable science proving the effectiveness of the vaccines over the rare examples of severe adverse effects the anti-vaxxers trot out, but that's just me. (My entire family is vaccinated with no issues. Also, not one of us has caught the virus yet.) But to each their own, I suppose...
Nicely put Jamie.

Not all of those who follow Rogan and Carlson are lacking intelligence. Instead they fail to use their intelligence to discern truth, but instead apply it to bolster their "core" beliefs. We need to teach folks to question their core beliefs; not to discard those beliefs, but to understand when they are applicable and when they lead to actions that are harmful because they have been misused and not fully understood.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by jamieW »

Henry wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:14 pm
jamieW wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:36 pm This will probably end the same way it often does. Rogan, feeling increasingly emboldened by his support and popularity, will keep pushing the envelope until he eventually says something so offensive that even Spotify has to give him the boot. It's just sad to me that so many businesses are so blinded by the money that they can't see this coming in advance. Rogan is one of those meatheads that morons view as "smart" because he gives voice to their ignorant viewpoints on a large platform (like Tucker Carlson). Basically, thinking horsey meds "cured" your COVID is not any different than taking any medication that didn't kill you, naturally recovering from the disease process, and then claiming the so-called meds are what did it. Might as well place a "magic rock" in your pocket and claim that's the miracle cure if you're fortunate enough to recover. I prefer to follow the indisputable science proving the effectiveness of the vaccines over the rare examples of severe adverse effects the anti-vaxxers trot out, but that's just me. (My entire family is vaccinated with no issues. Also, not one of us has caught the virus yet.) But to each their own, I suppose...
Nicely put Jamie.

Not all of those who follow Rogan and Carlson are lacking intelligence. Instead they fail to use their intelligence to discern truth, but instead apply it to bolster their "core" beliefs. We need to teach folks to question their core beliefs; not to discard those beliefs, but to understand when they are applicable and when they lead to actions that are harmful because they have been misused and not fully understood.
And that's even MORE nicely put, Henry, because it's a far more productive way of describing some Rogan/Carlson supporters than simply calling them morons (as I did). I feel I've become a more bitter person since Trump's election in 2016 and too eager to dismiss the other side as "dumb," which doesn't help the cause at all. Because of my upbringing, I was a registered Republican at the age of 18. Then, I went to college and began working at a music store, where I could listen to people who felt differently than me, and (as you said) began questioning my own beliefs (many, of which, never rang true to me in the first place). Unfortunately, most people never question what they were taught growing up, and they can now exist in echo chambers where they never need to. It hurts to live in a country that's so obviously going backwards. But, with the antiquated electoral college, 2 senators per state (most from states representing a very small percentage of the population), and a Supreme Court where the worst president we've ever had is responsible for a third of it, I can only see things getting worse for the near future...
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Henry »

I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised in the next decade. But, I understand why so many of us are anxious after gaslighter Trump came so close to discarding our democracy.

The solution to our present echo chambers seeking bias confirmation rather than truth is to diligently abide by epistemic norms. This is very challenging and only in certain situations do we need to be particularly attentive, e.g., when challenging and refining our core beliefs.

The following is long-winded and based on the works of my favorite author (Bernard Lonergan). it will likely require multiple readings to beneficially understand how the epistemic norms can be used to help us more effectively seek truth.

Ethics of Belief: refers to a cluster of related issues that focus on standards of rational belief, intellectual excellence, and conscientious belief-formation. Among the questions addressed in the field are:

Are there standards of some sort ("epistemic norms") that ought to guide how we form beliefs and pursue intellectual aims, such as the pursuit of truth or the quest for understanding?
If so, what kind of norms? Moral? Purely intellectual? Prudential?
If there are such norms, how strong are they? Are they categorical (i.e., binding regardless of our desires and commitments) or merely hypothetical (applicable only if we have certain desires and goals?) Do they bind absolutely or only conditionally?
Are beliefs within our voluntary control, or do we more or less automatically believe whatever we think is best supported by the evidence?
What aims should we have as believers? Achieving significant truth? Avoiding significant error? Achieving knowledge? Pleasure? Peace of mind? Understanding? Wisdom?
Must one always have sufficient evidence for one's beliefs (a view philosophers call "evidentialism"), or is it sometimes permissible to believe without sufficient evidence—or perhaps without any evidence at all?
What sorts of "intellectual virtues" (admirable mental traits, skills, and habits) are necessary for intellectual excellence and high-quality critical thinking?

Rules or standards that properly govern responsible belief-formation and the pursuit of intellectual excellence are what philosophers call epistemic (or "doxastic") norms. Widely accepted epistemic norms include:

1) Don't believe based on insufficient evidence.
2) Proportion your beliefs to the strength of the evidence.
3) Don't ignore or dismiss relevant evidence.
4) Be willing to revise your beliefs in light of new evidence.
5) Avoid wishful thinking.
6) Be open-minded and fair-minded.
7) Be wary of beliefs that align with your self-interest.
8) Admit how little you know.
9) Be alert to egocentrism, prejudice, and other mental biases.
10) Be careful to draw logical conclusions.
11) Base your beliefs on credible, well-substantiated evidence.
12) Be consistent.
13) Be curious and passionate in the pursuit of knowledge.
14) Think clearly and precisely.
15) Carefully investigate claims that concern you.
16) Actively seek out views that differ from your own.
17) Be grateful for constructive criticisms.
18) Question your assumptions.
19) Think about the implications of your beliefs.
20) Persevere through boring or difficult intellectual tasks.
21) Be thorough in your intellectual work.
22) Stick up for your beliefs, even in the face of peer pressure, ridicule, or intolerance.

The key epistemic norms to fight against confirmation bias include:
3) Don't ignore or dismiss relevant evidence.
4) Be willing to revise your beliefs in light of new evidence.
5) Avoid wishful thinking.
7) Be wary of beliefs that align with your self-interest.
9) Be alert to egocentrism, prejudice, and other mental biases.
16) Actively seek out views that differ from your own.
18) Question your assumptions.

Other norms that are also important to avoid unhelpful confirmation bias efforts include:
1) Don't believe based on insufficient evidence.
2) Proportion your beliefs to the strength of the evidence.
6) Be open-minded and fair-minded.
8) Admit how little you know.
17) Be grateful for constructive criticisms.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Schüttelbirne »

Don't know if this appeases anyone but they apparently thought of some measures:

https://newsroom.spotify.com/2022-01-30 ... -covid-19/
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by ona805111 »

Well, that's not the best news.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Gillingham »

jamieW wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:29 pm
Henry wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:14 pm
jamieW wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:36 pm This will probably end the same way it often does. Rogan, feeling increasingly emboldened by his support and popularity, will keep pushing the envelope until he eventually says something so offensive that even Spotify has to give him the boot. It's just sad to me that so many businesses are so blinded by the money that they can't see this coming in advance. Rogan is one of those meatheads that morons view as "smart" because he gives voice to their ignorant viewpoints on a large platform (like Tucker Carlson). Basically, thinking horsey meds "cured" your COVID is not any different than taking any medication that didn't kill you, naturally recovering from the disease process, and then claiming the so-called meds are what did it. Might as well place a "magic rock" in your pocket and claim that's the miracle cure if you're fortunate enough to recover. I prefer to follow the indisputable science proving the effectiveness of the vaccines over the rare examples of severe adverse effects the anti-vaxxers trot out, but that's just me. (My entire family is vaccinated with no issues. Also, not one of us has caught the virus yet.) But to each their own, I suppose...
Nicely put Jamie.

Not all of those who follow Rogan and Carlson are lacking intelligence. Instead they fail to use their intelligence to discern truth, but instead apply it to bolster their "core" beliefs. We need to teach folks to question their core beliefs; not to discard those beliefs, but to understand when they are applicable and when they lead to actions that are harmful because they have been misused and not fully understood.
And that's even MORE nicely put, Henry, because it's a far more productive way of describing some Rogan/Carlson supporters than simply calling them morons (as I did). I feel I've become a more bitter person since Trump's election in 2016 and too eager to dismiss the other side as "dumb," which doesn't help the cause at all. Because of my upbringing, I was a registered Republican at the age of 18. Then, I went to college and began working at a music store, where I could listen to people who felt differently than me, and (as you said) began questioning my own beliefs (many, of which, never rang true to me in the first place). Unfortunately, most people never question what they were taught growing up, and they can now exist in echo chambers where they never need to. It hurts to live in a country that's so obviously going backwards. But, with the antiquated electoral college, 2 senators per state (most from states representing a very small percentage of the population), and a Supreme Court where the worst president we've ever had is responsible for a third of it, I can only see things getting worse for the near future...
Progressives calling anybody who's not in their camp a moron and doing the exact thing they blame the other camp for are precisely the reasons why I'm getting more and more alienated from progressive politics (while being a progressive in nature). The polarizing tendency in Western democracies is getting out of hand unfortunately. You can't be one thing without hating the other. I see it in national, regional and local politics alike. Very painful development that I don't see changed any time soon.

As a pro-vaxxer (whatever that is...), I did enjoy some of Rogan's podcast with interesting guests. Where does this put me I ask anyone who is in any camp whatsoever.

Oh yes, we're a music board I remember... :music-listening:
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by jamieW »

Gillingham wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:39 am
jamieW wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:29 pm
Henry wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:14 pm

Nicely put Jamie.

Not all of those who follow Rogan and Carlson are lacking intelligence. Instead they fail to use their intelligence to discern truth, but instead apply it to bolster their "core" beliefs. We need to teach folks to question their core beliefs; not to discard those beliefs, but to understand when they are applicable and when they lead to actions that are harmful because they have been misused and not fully understood.
And that's even MORE nicely put, Henry, because it's a far more productive way of describing some Rogan/Carlson supporters than simply calling them morons (as I did). I feel I've become a more bitter person since Trump's election in 2016 and too eager to dismiss the other side as "dumb," which doesn't help the cause at all. Because of my upbringing, I was a registered Republican at the age of 18. Then, I went to college and began working at a music store, where I could listen to people who felt differently than me, and (as you said) began questioning my own beliefs (many, of which, never rang true to me in the first place). Unfortunately, most people never question what they were taught growing up, and they can now exist in echo chambers where they never need to. It hurts to live in a country that's so obviously going backwards. But, with the antiquated electoral college, 2 senators per state (most from states representing a very small percentage of the population), and a Supreme Court where the worst president we've ever had is responsible for a third of it, I can only see things getting worse for the near future...
Progressives calling anybody who's not in their camp a moron and doing the exact thing they blame the other camp for are precisely the reasons why I'm getting more and more alienated from progressive politics (while being a progressive in nature). The polarizing tendency in Western democracies is getting out of hand unfortunately. You can't be one thing without hating the other. I see it in national, regional and local politics alike. Very painful development that I don't see changed any time soon.

As a pro-vaxxer (whatever that is...), I did enjoy some of Rogan's podcast with interesting guests. Where does this put me I ask anyone who is in any camp whatsoever.

Oh yes, we're a music board I remember... :music-listening:
And I will just say this in my defense. I NEVER called people "dumb" for being a Republican or supporting George W. Bush or anyone else. But where do you draw the line? When you see your democracy in peril because of a racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, violence-inspiring madman, and about 40% of your country still votes for him because they don't care about anything more than their "side" winning, that's not supposed to leave you feeling depressed and with a sense of hopelessness? When you see voting rights being trampled, and individual states making sure they have people in place next time that WILL go against the will of the people and overturn an election, that shouldn't deeply concern me, and I shouldn't be upset with the people who are allowing it to happen? I might be a liberal, but I would never want to sacrifice democracy if a demagogue from the left tried the same thing. I am growing increasingly tired of the false-equivalencies that the left is just as guilty as the far right in these cases. With all due respect, it wasn't liberals I saw hanging off the Capitol building on January 6th, riled up by the one they now see as their Messiah.

And, with that said, I'm dropping the subject and will respond no more on this issue...
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jirin »

Edre Peraza wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:00 pm This is going to sound quite selfish but I actually hope more artists dont follow suit. It is just going to make the listen I g expierence much more difficult and I have a gut feeling even with artists leaving Spotify wont change a thing.

Also, considering Young wanted then to remove episodes with misinformation, I actually am not fully on his side because in my eyes unfortunately conspiracy is part of free speech and Spotify shouldn't have the right to remove what they deem isnt accurate because they are not an Oracle of truth.
The problem with that argument is that it assumes science is a matter of opinion. “Joe Rogan is an idiot” is an opinion. “Vaccines are safe and effective” is a fact. And the people convincing others otherwise are doing harm measured in human lives. Spreading vaccine misinformation is comparable to yelling “Fire” in a crowded theatre or “Bomb” on a plane. Just slower.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jirin »

Gillingham wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:39 am
jamieW wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:29 pm
Henry wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:14 pm

Nicely put Jamie.

Not all of those who follow Rogan and Carlson are lacking intelligence. Instead they fail to use their intelligence to discern truth, but instead apply it to bolster their "core" beliefs. We need to teach folks to question their core beliefs; not to discard those beliefs, but to understand when they are applicable and when they lead to actions that are harmful because they have been misused and not fully understood.
And that's even MORE nicely put, Henry, because it's a far more productive way of describing some Rogan/Carlson supporters than simply calling them morons (as I did). I feel I've become a more bitter person since Trump's election in 2016 and too eager to dismiss the other side as "dumb," which doesn't help the cause at all. Because of my upbringing, I was a registered Republican at the age of 18. Then, I went to college and began working at a music store, where I could listen to people who felt differently than me, and (as you said) began questioning my own beliefs (many, of which, never rang true to me in the first place). Unfortunately, most people never question what they were taught growing up, and they can now exist in echo chambers where they never need to. It hurts to live in a country that's so obviously going backwards. But, with the antiquated electoral college, 2 senators per state (most from states representing a very small percentage of the population), and a Supreme Court where the worst president we've ever had is responsible for a third of it, I can only see things getting worse for the near future...
Progressives calling anybody who's not in their camp a moron and doing the exact thing they blame the other camp for are precisely the reasons why I'm getting more and more alienated from progressive politics (while being a progressive in nature). The polarizing tendency in Western democracies is getting out of hand unfortunately. You can't be one thing without hating the other. I see it in national, regional and local politics alike. Very painful development that I don't see changed any time soon.

As a pro-vaxxer (whatever that is...), I did enjoy some of Rogan's podcast with interesting guests. Where does this put me I ask anyone who is in any camp whatsoever.

Oh yes, we're a music board I remember... :music-listening:
I will agree on one point, that a lot of progressives can be just as judgmental and dogmatic as conservative Evangelicals. Morality is a complex difficult problem, and anyone who treats it like a strict black and white set of rules and harshly judges anyone who doesn’t match their views exactly is wrong. Bob Dylan had it right in ‘My Back Pages’.

But you have to draw the line somewhere. Just being republican doesn’t make you dumb. But seeing a narcissistic reality show host who made a career out of poor business decisions and fraud as a patriotic business genius kind of does.

Being against cancel culture doesn’t make you a bigot. But supporting a person who wanted to form a Muslim registry, ban all Muslims from the country, and strip LGBT people of personal freedoms and basic healthcare kind of does.

Some moral issues are difficult and ambiguous, but Trump’s most extreme positions are decidedly not.

As progressives what we need to do is be more tolerant of dissenting views particularly in cases where the issue is censorship and hurt feelings, but keep drawing a line when it comes to outright bigotry and outright harm.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by BleuPanda »

Gillingham wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:39 am
jamieW wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:29 pm
Henry wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:14 pm

Nicely put Jamie.

Not all of those who follow Rogan and Carlson are lacking intelligence. Instead they fail to use their intelligence to discern truth, but instead apply it to bolster their "core" beliefs. We need to teach folks to question their core beliefs; not to discard those beliefs, but to understand when they are applicable and when they lead to actions that are harmful because they have been misused and not fully understood.
And that's even MORE nicely put, Henry, because it's a far more productive way of describing some Rogan/Carlson supporters than simply calling them morons (as I did). I feel I've become a more bitter person since Trump's election in 2016 and too eager to dismiss the other side as "dumb," which doesn't help the cause at all. Because of my upbringing, I was a registered Republican at the age of 18. Then, I went to college and began working at a music store, where I could listen to people who felt differently than me, and (as you said) began questioning my own beliefs (many, of which, never rang true to me in the first place). Unfortunately, most people never question what they were taught growing up, and they can now exist in echo chambers where they never need to. It hurts to live in a country that's so obviously going backwards. But, with the antiquated electoral college, 2 senators per state (most from states representing a very small percentage of the population), and a Supreme Court where the worst president we've ever had is responsible for a third of it, I can only see things getting worse for the near future...
Progressives calling anybody who's not in their camp a moron and doing the exact thing they blame the other camp for are precisely the reasons why I'm getting more and more alienated from progressive politics (while being a progressive in nature). The polarizing tendency in Western democracies is getting out of hand unfortunately. You can't be one thing without hating the other. I see it in national, regional and local politics alike. Very painful development that I don't see changed any time soon.

As a pro-vaxxer (whatever that is...), I did enjoy some of Rogan's podcast with interesting guests. Where does this put me I ask anyone who is in any camp whatsoever.

Oh yes, we're a music board I remember... :music-listening:
I don't like the claim that progressives are 'doing the exact thing they blame the other camp for.' There is a massive gulf between calling someone a 'moron' and, say, using slurs. Which, big shocker, most of the transphobic and homophobic slurs I have heard come from people on the right (though certain segments of the 'left' have also jumped onto the transphobic wagon). I've also been called a moron and a bunch of other mean terms, but they don't have the specificity and hatred. If someone calls me a moron, it's probably because I did something they think is stupid - and I will probably think they are a moron for calling me a moron.

It can be childish to insult others, but I don't think either side is calling for general insults to be banned.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

Jirin wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:12 pm
Edre Peraza wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:00 pm This is going to sound quite selfish but I actually hope more artists dont follow suit. It is just going to make the listen I g expierence much more difficult and I have a gut feeling even with artists leaving Spotify wont change a thing.

Also, considering Young wanted then to remove episodes with misinformation, I actually am not fully on his side because in my eyes unfortunately conspiracy is part of free speech and Spotify shouldn't have the right to remove what they deem isnt accurate because they are not an Oracle of truth.
The problem with that argument is that it assumes science is a matter of opinion. “Joe Rogan is an idiot” is an opinion. “Vaccines are safe and effective” is a fact. And the people convincing others otherwise are doing harm measured in human lives. Spreading vaccine misinformation is comparable to yelling “Fire” in a crowded theatre or “Bomb” on a plane. Just slower.
Yeah I totally understand what you are saying. My only issue is that sites like Facebook for example have taken that stance but there has been instances where their "fact-checking" isnt always accurate and often just sides with whatever benefits the corporation. At the end of the day that is my main concern, corporations have far too much power in the United States and go often unchecked. If we give them authority to decide what is considered misinformation on their site it could easily lead to them cherry picking what might make them look good.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Live in Phoenix »

Joe Rogan and Spotify now trying to mollify the situation. There are professional hate/misinformation peddlers out there, but I think he's just careless, like if just some dude was in charge of a very popular podcast. Apparently he's called himself "a fucking idiot," which is different from a professional a-hole who's never wrong, even when you put their contradictory statements next to each other.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by BleuPanda »

Live in Phoenix wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:45 pm Joe Rogan and Spotify now trying to mollify the situation. There are professional hate/misinformation peddlers out there, but I think he's just careless, like if just some dude was in charge of a very popular podcast. Apparently he's called himself "a fucking idiot," which is different from a professional a-hole who's never wrong, even when you put their contradictory statements next to each other.
This is why I tried to differentiate between him and people like Milo Y earlier - I don't think Rogan means direct harm as much as he is careless. He's not informed enough to call people out over misinformation, and in fact seems to believe that misinformation. I have to actually see him try better (apologies don't mean anything if the thing being apologized for isn't corrected), but I have more faith in him trying than a lot of other figures in similar positions.

The big problem being that those figures I distrust are the type of people he would bring onto his show.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jirin »

Neil Young's moral stand against Spotify would carry more weight if the alternative he were pushing weren't, you know, AMAZON.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Live in Phoenix »

Jirin wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:08 pm Neil Young's moral stand against Spotify would carry more weight if the alternative he were pushing weren't, you know, AMAZON.
Basically every medium has its shit. I admit I'm ambivalent about ultimatums. The mood toward Rogan has gotten significantly worse, incidentally.


Joe Rogan Responds to Viral Clip Showing Him Use N-Word, Calls It “Regretful and Shameful”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollyw ... 87685/amp/
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jirin »

Live in Phoenix wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:19 am
Jirin wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:08 pm Neil Young's moral stand against Spotify would carry more weight if the alternative he were pushing weren't, you know, AMAZON.
Basically every medium has its shit. I admit I'm ambivalent about ultimatums. The mood toward Rogan has gotten significantly worse, incidentally.


Joe Rogan Responds to Viral Clip Showing Him Use N-Word, Calls It “Regretful and Shameful”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hollyw ... 87685/amp/
Objectively though, what's morally more objectionable? A podcast that pushed bogus COVID cures, or working people on long shifts in sweltering heat with bathroom breaks hurting your statistics and manipulating and threatening them into not unionizing?

Most big companies do some kind of morally objectionable thing, but most aren't as bad as Amazon. One time a picker just dropped dead and they made everyone else keep working with the body laying there on the floor.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by VanillaFire1000 »

I mean, good. At least it is helping to get people to turn on Joe Rogan.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Jirin »

Neil Young’s selective outrage, at best, will play into the right wing narrative that progressives are the Fun Police, and at worst, could lead to needing to have eight different subscriptions to stream all the music you want instead of one.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by panam »

As a non-US citizen, I think the Joe Rogan issue is very domestic, because the misinformation is not just on Spotify, it's on YouTube, Amazon, etc. I understand that people want to censor certain individuals but I think they take advantage of the outrage of some so that some powerful people can monetize in their war against economic rivals.
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Re: Neil Young's Music Pulled From Spotify

Post by Rob »

panam wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:10 pm As a non-US citizen, I think the Joe Rogan issue is very domestic, because the misinformation is not just on Spotify, it's on YouTube, Amazon, etc. I understand that people want to censor certain individuals but I think they take advantage of the outrage of some so that some powerful people can monetize in their war against economic rivals.
The problem with Joe Rogan specifically is that Spotify literally paid him to be a Spotify exclusive. I don't mean a fee for each play as is standard procedure, but millions of dollars. They are in a way his employers. That's what is different with the YouTube stuff or any other misinformation podcast on Spotify.
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